Debuffs and Elites/Solos

[Anthony Jackson]

The way stun locking can completely shut down solos has been discussed ad nauseum, but the problem is really wider than stun locking; any debuff is worth more on an elite or a solo, because it's equivalent to hitting 2 or 5 standard monsters.

This is also theoretically a problem if you're using a higher level standard monster, but a standard monster worth 5 monsters of the character's level will be about nine levels higher than the PCs and you'll need a lot of luck to hit it with a debuff.

This does naturally imply that you can use high level standards as solo monsters (particularly if you give them evasion), but this has a reverse problem: the reason solos and elites have mass hit points and high damage, rather than huge defenses and attack bonuses, is because fighting really high level standards isn't much fun. You never really get to use your nifty tricks (because you keep missing) and defensive tricks are equally irrelevant (as it hits you on a 2).

So, how can this be fixed? My basic feeling is that using a debuff on a solo should feel like it accomplishes something (so no just cranking up the defenses and/or immunities) but shouldn't be totally awesome.

One possible solution: give solos in general a bonus standard action per turn, and remove all conditions (even ones that are not save ends) between the first and second action. This means that debuffs still do something, but don't render the creature irrelevant.

 

[Stalker0]

There may be a few problem powers out there, but I don't think the "problem" is really an issue....at least until epic tier.

First of all, the party still has to hit to get a debuff on, and solos have higher defenses than normal monsters...just not that much more.

Second, most debuffs only last one round, solos are designed to take punishment for many rounds of combat and keep on trucking.

Now at epic levels when you get a lot of stun powers it may be an issue...but I think most solos are designed to be hit with debuffs. Afterall, when your fighting 5 monsters, you can kill one and drop the encounter's offense by 1/4. You can't do that against a dragon, the dragon will be at full strength through the fight, so you need debuffs to tie it up until you can finish it off.

 

[baberg]

All solos already have +5 to all saving throws (as per p185 of DMG) and have +2 on three of their defenses, plus action points, plus the HP of 4 or 5 monsters, plus a way to do two or more actions on a turn (again, all per p185 of the DMG).

Is this comment intended to address a problem you've seen during play, or a potential problem you see by just reading the stat blocks?

 

[Anthony Jackson]

Is this comment intended to address a problem you've seen during play, or a potential problem you see by just reading the stat blocks?

A problem I've seen during play, as well as a problem seen from reading powers. Most of the totally broken effects are epic, but we were seeing significant issues by just stacking marking, enfeebling strike, and illusory ambush.

 

[baberg]

A problem I've seen during play, as well as a problem seen from reading powers. Most of the totally broken effects are epic, but we were seeing significant issues by just stacking marking, enfeebling strike, and illusory ambush.

Mark and Enfeebling Strike can't stack (they're both Mark effects) so that's only a -2 on attacks that don't include the Marked target. Illusory Ambush is a pretty powerful spell, I'll give you that, but as long as the Solo is still attacking whoever most recently marked it, it's only a -2 on the attack.

I haven't tossed a Solo at my PCs yet so I can't speak from experience on that, but on D&D Day we did fight against a Young White Dragon (L3 solo) and with a party of 5 we downed it - the only issue I saw was that my Fighter was reduced to using basic melee attacks after a while because I'd blown everything else.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

Mark and Enfeebling Strike can't stack (they're both Mark effects)

Enfeebling strike is not a mark effect, it's an untyped penalty effect that only works on marked targets.

 

[Saeviomagy]

A problem I've seen during play, as well as a problem seen from reading powers. Most of the totally broken effects are epic, but we were seeing significant issues by just stacking marking, enfeebling strike, and illusory ambush.

That's, what, 2 characters goes to do some pretty low damage and stack up a -4 on a foe. Please describe what these 'significant issues' were?

 

[Runestar]

I guess the problem is when you start putting all your eggs into one basket. However you look at it, you are out-numbering a solo 5-1, which means that you will have 5 actions to its 1 action for the entire duration of the fight. So anytime you can deny it its actions (via debuffs) or cause it to spend its limited quantity of actions in a sub-optimal way, you gain a huge advantage, moreso than if you were trying this sort of stunt on a group of 5 normal monsters. And the problem may get worse if you are able to repeat and maintain this sort of advantage consistently over the course of battle.

3e already demonstrated amply why the 1 evil BBEG vs 4-PC party showdown concept does not work. I am not sure if simply inflating their hp/defenses in 4e actually resolves this problem (together with toning down the power of control spells), or merely prolongs the inevitable, considering that the root of the problem (fewer actions available) still exists.

That's, what, 2 characters goes to do some pretty low damage and stack up a -4 on a foe. Please describe what these 'significant issues' were?

The problem likely stems from that foe being the only enemy the party is facing. It is like the at-will effectively imposing -2 to-hit on every foe.

 

[Anthony Jackson]

That's, what, 2 characters goes to do some pretty low damage and stack up a -4 on a foe. Please describe what these 'significant issues' were?

We might have been doing low damage, but it was doing negligible damage.

 

[Stalker0]

3e already demonstrated amply why the 1 evil BBEG vs 4-PC party showdown concept does not work. I am not sure if simply inflating their hp/defenses in 4e actually resolves this problem (together with toning down the power of control spells), or merely prolongs the inevitable, considering that the root of the problem (fewer actions available) still exists.

You have to remember that solos aren't just tougher version of normal monsters, they are designed to take on groups of characters.

They do that a couple of ways:

1) Action Points. In most cases, solos get two actions in the first two rounds of combat..that's a big bonus.
2) Area attacks. Solos generally have ways of hitting the whole party, or at least large chunks of it, with every attack.

Now of course denying actions to a solo is a great idea, but solos can also last through many rounds of combat, in which your big debuffs should be gone.