Decline of RPG sales

[The Shaman]

Saying that they are marketing to the "lowest common denominator" is incredibly insulting. While some gamers may enjoy taking the risk on the next latest thing and trying out material which is frequently fairly far below WOTC standards, I don't think that consumers who stick with a tried and true provider should be seen as somehow less important or less valuable to the game.

If "lowest common denominator" bothers you, then read it as "most common denominator," or the "core audience," or "the mainstream gamer," or whatever you prefer.

(For what it's worth, I think "lowest common denominator" is much less perjorative than "sheeple.")

I take exception with the claim that third-party products are "frequently far below" the qulity of Wizards of the Coast - I have yet to buy a Green Ronin, AEG, The Game Mechanics, or RPGObjects hard- or softcover that I would consider inferior to a WotC book except in a limited range of production values, and since mechanics and thematics are far more important to me than full-color artwork on every page, those production values are not a significant factor to me as a consumer.

(That said, I think Green Ronin's Nocturnals source book is the most 'attractive' game book in my collection, followed by 1e Mutants and Masterminds.)

A recent thread talked about d20 products that "owned" WOTC products. And there were quite a few. But, one thing I took from that thread was that while a given company might produce a single better book, WOTC produced the second best book in pretty much any given category. That means that WOTC, rather than simply catering to the masses, is actually producing very good products, just not the best product every time.

They should try that as a marketing slogan: "Wizards of the Coast - makers of the second- or third-best books in a given category!"

Hussar, do you really think it's in the long-term interest of a company to cede the creative initiative to others in its field?

It seems to me that Wizards of the Coast relies on competitive advantages that have nothing to do with the quality of its products to maintain its market dominance, and I think that stifles entrepreneurship and innovation.

I don't buy the argument that Wizards' goal is to "sell to the mainstream." I think their products, by virtue of WotC's position in the RPG market, define the mainstream - if Wizards of the Coast published Black Company or Iron Heroes or Midnight, the same gamers who bought Magic of Incarnum or Heroes of Battle or Eberron would buy those books instead.

 

[The Shaman]

Shaman – I am sorry but you truly don’t know what you are talking about. You really and truly don’t.

It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

And with that you are saying that the core concepts and realities of the market place are incorrect? I think a good number of folks at Harvard, Yale and Wharton might have a little something to say about that.

Then please, by all means, gather them together and ask them weigh in - if someone can adequately explain to me how selling the most widgets automatically makes your widgets the best, I'm all ears.

But for now, I'll consider BMW to make better cars than GM, even if GM sells three or four or ten times as many in a year.

No your not – you want a product that you like and if you don’t like it you call it crap; am I missing how many times you refer to your own purchases and tastes here?

Well, then let's try this: I think Iron Heroes is an innovative product - so is Black Company. I think Midnight and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay have fascinating settings. I think the approach to character abilities in Blue Rose is really interesting.

I don't own any of these books, nor am I invovled in games in which these books are used. In fact I can honestly say that I don't 'like' Blue Rose - the style of fantasy from which it draws doesn't interest me. I can still appreciate the quality of the mechanics and thematics these books bring to the hobby, however.

I can look at something and appreciate its values whether I 'like' it or not, whether I use it or not.

And exactly what does this have to do with your claim regarding the overall market”? you are one of millions; your individual purchasing choices are irrelevant to your arguments in any of your posts.

I think I answered this in my post to Hussar already.

Edit: Kids, I'm done here - I've already spent way too much time on this thread as it is. I think I've made my position abundantly clear at this point, and y'all are welcome to agree or disagree (probably the latter) as you see fit. Have a good weekend!

 

[Maggan]

I take exception with the claim that third-party products are "frequently far below" the qulity of Wizards of the Coast - I have yet to buy a Green Ronin, AEG, The Game Mechanics, or RPGObjects hard- or softcover that I would consider inferior to a WotC book except in a limited range of production values, and since mechanics and thematics are far more important to me than full-color artwork on every page, those production values are not a significant factor to me as a consumer.

But that's a very small range of third party publishers. I have in my shelf products from some 35 or so third party publishers. Out of some hundred books, a very small amount are equal to or superior to the WotC offerings.

And yes, those that are very, very good are often from Green Ronin, Necromancer Games, AEG and a few more. But the really, really bad stuff comes from third party publishers such as Fast Forward Entertainment, Nightshift Games and a score of other smaller publishers.

So in my experience, third party products are often far below the quality WotC offers. There are far more misses than there are hits, at least in my shelf. There are publishers that rise above the doldrum, and they are truly shining stars. But they are also a minority in numbers.

Cheers!

/M

 

[buzz]

For example, can you imagine the collective freak-out that would occur if WOTC decided to introduce an innovative new version of D&D next year?

Can I step in here and make the point that, as far as innovation goes, WotC needs to be given credit for releasing 3e and putting forward the OGL concept in the first place? Shaman keeps talking about "innovation". Well, I for one think that d20 and the OGL was massively innovative. Wihtout it, the d20 market being discussed wouldn't even exist.

WotC could have kept on releasing AD&D2.x ad infinitum and made tidy profits. Instead they took a massive risk in rebuilding the most popular RPG on earth from the ground up in order to make it better, as well as provide a business model that would be profitable for both themselves and other gaming companies.

Ergo, you'll need to excuse me if I balk at accepting the idea that WotC is in no way "innovative".

 

[buzz]

I don't understand this idea that if WotC is successful (and there's little question that they are), that somehow that inherently translates into better gaming for everyone.

You're confusing the hobby ("better gaming") with the industry. In terms of the industry, it's well established that its overall health is related to the health of D&D. The current downturn seems to be the result of market ebb and flow, IMO. I can't see anything WotC is doing that is directly the cause. Honestly, we've seen them have to tighten their belt over the last few years as well.

Better gaming is subjective, and is mostly dependent on your game group.

 

[buzz]

Well, then let's try this: I think Iron Heroes is an innovative product - so is Black Company. I think Midnight and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay have fascinating settings. I think the approach to character abilities in Blue Rose is really interesting.

Well, again we're seeing here that "innovative" seems to equate with "prodiucts I like", and that the existence of innovative products doesn't seem to have been affected by the existence of WotC products you don't consider innovative.

So, basically, we're back to the quality of the products out there right now having nothing to do with current economic issues in the industry. If it were the mid-'90s, I might think your and GVD's position had some merit, but not now.

As for your comments about Eberron... see above. "Safe and not innovative" would have been releasing a FR2 or a revised Greyhawk. Given the @#$%storm of commentary about Eberron when it was being previewed, I consider it to have been a bold move on WotC's part.

 

[MongooseMatt]

Mongoose having completely dropped their generic d20 support in favor of Conan, Wars, Starship Troopers, B5, and Paranoia

Umm, no we haven't. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that, over the next 12-18 months, the D20 badge will become more important, not less. . .

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Umm, no we haven't. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that, over the next 12-18 months, the D20 badge will become more important, not less. . .

Glad to hear it. I'm really looking forward to the Expert Player's Guides.

 

[Hussar]

Shaman wrote:

I have yet to buy a Green Ronin, AEG, The Game Mechanics, or RPGObjects hard- or softcover that I would consider inferior to a WotC book except in a limited range of production values, and since mechanics and thematics are far more important to me than full-color artwork on every page, those production values are not a significant factor to me as a consumer.

(bold mine)

Pardon? Have you actually bought that many AEG d20 products? I unfortunately have. While I love the WLD, I'm by no means going to try to defend it in terms of any production values. When, in a single 150 encounter region, I have to fix the errors in about 35 encounters, that says some pretty shoddy editting to me. Looking through their one word title series (I own Evil, Mercenaries and Secrets) and I see page after page of typos, mechanical errors and outright mistakes.

AEG getting out of the RPG biz was mentioned earlier as an example of the downturn in the industry. I'm sure that's part of it. But, I'm also pretty sure that book after book of crap quality had a big part of it as well. Scarred Lands suffered the same way despite claims that it was the release of 3.5 that sunk the setting. Let's face it, if you keep publishing crap books, people are going to go where the quality is. If I pick up a WOTC book, while I know there may be errors in it, I also know that in very short order, there will be errata issued and I know that I'm not going to see the word "orc" replaced with the word "ore" by someone's word processor spellchecking program.

Before anyone accuses me of being unduly unfair, let me relate a recent example. I've just finished going over Region B in the World's Largest Dungeon. Region B has about 150 numbered encounters. I found mistakes in about 1/5th of them. Mistakes ranged from relatively minor errors - misprints, bad cut and paste jobs, things like that, to fairly serious mistakes - mislabeld rooms on the map, descriptions not matching the map making the descriptions invalid, poor mechanics like hobgoblins riding worgs (sorry, worgs are medium creautures and cannot be ridden by hobgoblins); to very serious errors like the entire premise of the region being physically impossible. Let me explain. The basic plot of the region is that a group of cultists must move from area X to area Y in order to worship at an idol. However, there are only two possible routes to the idol, one leads to a certain death at the hands of a group of really cool undead fallen paladins and the other route leads straight through the center of an enemy camp after passing through an area that the group refuses to enter. This makes the entire premise of the region impossible.

Now, I can fix this without too much difficulty. I knocked a couple of holes in some walls and opened a new route. But, my point still remains that this is shockingly poor editting and design. And I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if the WLD had been produced by WOTC, that this sort of thing would not happen. Trying to argue that the only advantage WOTC books have over other books is pretty pictures is silly. Something I have always argued is that if d20 publishers really want to be taken seriously, they must start making a concerted effort to properly proofread their works. This sort of thing is far too common in d20 books and it makes people seriously question all d20 publishers, not just the one that happens to be making the mistakes.

 

[Greg K]

Looking through their one word title series (I own Evil, Mercenaries and Secrets) and I see page after page of typos, mechanical errors and outright mistakes.

AEG getting out of the RPG biz was mentioned earlier as an example of the downturn in the industry. I'm sure that's part of it. .

Hey, if you think you think Mercenaries is crap quality, you can send it my way