Decline of RPG sales

[Ogrork the Mighty]

Have you actually bought that many AEG d20 products? I unfortunately have.

I got a chuckle out of that too. I have quite a few AEG products and they're good for little more than mining ideas; the mechanics are so broken they're nearly useless. And yes, they are (were) in need of a professional editor, big-time.

[I should note that I haven't purchased anything recently, however, so maybe the quality is much improved. They've lost me as a customer though]

 

[buzz]

Umm, no we haven't. In fact, I'll go out on a limb and say that, over the next 12-18 months, the D20 badge will become more important, not less. . .

I stand corrected, though looking at your website, the emphasis seems to be on the products I mentioned. Effectively, this is a compliment; you're not churning out splats, you're doing interesting and varied things with the OGL.

 

[Greg K]

I got a chuckle out of that too. I have quite a few AEG products and they're good for little more than mining ideas;

Well, I personally will take AEG products for their ideas over the majority of WOTC stuff that I have seen. Then again, I am one of those people that tends to find the majority of WOTC's generic supplement material unappealing.

 

[helium3]

Might as well let it go. There are three reviews of it right now, two four star and one two star. It's either something you like or something you dislike. Unlike psionics, another love/hate idea, Icarnum doesn't have a lot of history with the D&D game.

Oh, I'm not necessarily sticking up for Incarnum. I actually don't know a lot about it. Rather, I'm responding to a rhetorical technique I see used a lot on these boards that I find very annoying. Basically, it's the technique of strong language. My friends with PhD's in political science do it all the time. They use words like clearly, obviously (and note that there's usually an volume inflection there so that the "power-word" is spoken at a higher volume then the other words in the sentence) or a more cunning assembleage of similiar words that states the same thing with the intent of tricking the listener into making the assumption that the speaker is a bona fide expert on the subject. It's a way of taking control and asserting dominance in a debate without actually proferring a specific argument. Engineers and science types are using the same technique when they say something along the lines of "it follows from first principles."

I hate it, and whenever I see it, I challenge the speaker to give an actual reason. In this case, he (she?) did and pointed out that Incarnum is apparently just the SWRPG force system ported over to a fantasy setting. While I don't necessarily agree that this is a great thing, I don't think it automatically qualifies the Incarnum book as Dreck. I don't own the SWRPG, so having ported to a fantasy setting for me isn't such a terrible thing.

 

[helium3]

This holds true for every public company - are you suggesting that innovation only comes from fringe companies with nothing to lose?

No. Don't be silly. I'm not stupid.

It depends on the industry, sir. Do you see innovation in companies that produce physical products where personal taste isn't a factor? All the time. Why? Because it's almost guarenteed that an innovation that makes a physical product tangibly better in some way will sell better than products without that innovation.

Whenever you throw personal taste into the mix, however, innovation is not a sure fire winner. Companies introduce innovative products that fail ALL THE TIME because the average customer simply does not like the product for reasons of personal taste. When personal taste is a factor, you have to look at what your market generally wants. To do so anything else is ludicrous.

So, while you can complain that WOTC is too conservative for your tastes, I think it's highly unreasonable of you to expect them to be less conservative unless you've got some special information in hand that proves that more innovation would improve their profit margin.

And if you're suggesting that WOTC not care about their profit margin, well, I just don't know where to go from there.

 

[helium3]

Can I step in here and make the point that, as far as innovation goes, WotC needs to be given credit for releasing 3e and putting forward the OGL concept in the first place? Shaman keeps talking about "innovation". Well, I for one think that d20 and the OGL was massively innovative. Wihtout it, the d20 market being discussed wouldn't even exist.

WotC could have kept on releasing AD&D2.x ad infinitum and made tidy profits. Instead they took a massive risk in rebuilding the most popular RPG on earth from the ground up in order to make it better, as well as provide a business model that would be profitable for both themselves and other gaming companies.

Ergo, you'll need to excuse me if I balk at accepting the idea that WotC is in no way "innovative".

I agree with you. I'm just pointing out that the argument "innovative=good" is false. Innovation (since we seem to be talking about innovation in a more artistic sense) is not always good. Sometimes it flops badly.

 

[SBMC]

It certainly wouldn't be the first time.Then please, by all means, gather them together and ask them weigh in - if someone can adequately explain to me how selling the most widgets automatically makes your widgets the best, I'm all ears.

Wow…should I actually answer that question? OK – fine you asked – if someone sells the most of something does that not then mean that the marketplace deems it the best? Hint – It does.

Now before you go off talking about Microsoft and such; those cases are by far the rarity. RPG is about as free a market as one can get given the vast outlets available.

But for now, I'll consider BMW to make better cars than GM, even if GM sells three or four or ten times as many in a year.

Err…guess what most of BMW’s sales are NOT in the U.S. it is in Europe by far where it is a domestic company; and outsells GM by far. On the contrary Japan sells most of its cars here in the U.S. and guess what; they actually sell a heck of a lot; commonly more than GM in the Japanese core models that is (Sedans). Why? Because Japanese brands (in sedans) are considered superior; so the marketplace buys them.

Well, then let's try this: I think Iron Heroes is an innovative product - so is Black Company. I think Midnight and Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay have fascinating settings. I think the approach to character abilities in Blue Rose is really interesting.

I don't own any of these books, nor am I invovled in games in which these books are used. In fact I can honestly say that I don't 'like' Blue Rose - the style of fantasy from which it draws doesn't interest me. I can still appreciate the quality of the mechanics and thematics these books bring to the hobby, however.

I can look at something and appreciate its values whether I 'like' it or not, whether I use it or not.I think I answered this in my post to Hussar already.

So again…your opinion – beating up other companies in the context of fact instead of opinion and personal taste.

Edit: Kids, I'm done here - I've already spent way too much time on this thread as it is. I think I've made my position abundantly clear at this point, and y'all are welcome to agree or disagree (probably the latter) as you see fit. Have a good weekend!

One of the points of a Bboard is to create points and arguments for and against them – Your abandoning the conversation certainly says something.

 

[Belen]

And my argument is that I don't necessarily buy that WotC's strategy is to produce nothing but "safe" vanilla books. Eberron alone is evidence against this. You and GVD seem to be assuming that your personal opinion of their books is fact, and thus proof of a strategy.

How is Eberron not a "safe" book? At the most, it can be said that it was a timely book. It takes a lot of the new type anime final fantasy elements that have crept into the newer generation over the last decade. The setting is not really that innovative.

Actually, the campaign book is fairly good, but their later releases have brought back the bland where Eberron is concerned.

 

[Belen]

So again…your opinion – beating up other companies in the context of fact instead of opinion and personal taste.

Actually, he has never stated that his opinion was fact. He has maintained that his statements are generated through his own personal tastes. So you are attacking him because you do not like his opinion. Let's not fall for any other illusion on that score.

Here is the core of Shaman's argument: In many industries, the giant can be puttering along making the same type of material, then get hosed one day because someone made it better. Someone can make a better screwdriver one day and people will begin buying it because this particular screwdriver has the extra long snout that makes it easier to use than any other screwdriver made. Suddenly, dewalt or black and decker have real comptetion because they did not try to innovate to make that screwdriver better. In many cases, they have learned their lesson by now because they have a lot of equal competitors. They have to innovate.

WOTC is different. They have no competitor. The small size of the hobby and there level of market dominance keeps them from having to effectively compete. No one can invent a better wheel in the hobby because no one can ever get access to all the channels needed to sell the product and no one can get the amount of free advertizing that TSR managed to develop back in the 80s.

Now, if Mattel decided to buy Green Ronin, then WOTC would have a serious problem. However, I doubt that will happen.

However, it is a possibility that a company can churn out consistantly good products that are a little bland, yet sell well. It is equally possible that a continuous lack of innovation combined with a stagnate or negative growth in the consumer base could create an even larger exodus of the base and push them towards other mediums for enjoyment.

I am not saying that this is happening, but it could happen, and could be one way to describe the current marketplace situation.

 

[WizarDru]

How is Eberron not a "safe" book? At the most, it can be said that it was a timely book. It takes a lot of the new type anime final fantasy elements that have crept into the newer generation over the last decade. The setting is not really that innovative.

Which elements of Eberron are from 'Anime' or 'Final Fantasy', specifically?

With additions of things like Dragonmarks, Dragonshards, artificers, warforged, action points, schemas and a bunch of other mechanical elements, I think Eberron was certainly something of a risk. Maybe you forgot all the frothing at the mouth about dino-riding halfling barbarians, the warforged or the lightning rail? Dwarves as perfumed bankers? Gnomes as masters of intrigue? Orcs as guardians of nature? Elven undead-worshipping cults that are non-evil? Eberron had the serious potential to be a major misstep for WotC. Fans could have rejected it in droves. The heated debate here and at Wizard's boards certainly didn't paint the impression that Eberron was a safe, sure thing.