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Decline of RPG sales

Justin Bacon said:
And, once again, you're attempting to define "competition" in a way that renders it a meaningless term.

Well no. That'd be you. If you want to frame the state that exists between the industry leaders as one of straightforward competition, then (with some caveats I've noticed), you must accept an absurd definition.

Nice strawman, BTW, since absolutely no one is arguing that people use GURPS to "replicate the D&D experience".

Products are generally considered to compete if they fulfil the same desire. You can define this broadly, in which case the desire for amsuement includes a number of things, or tightly. By and large, competition to fulfil the "desire to play RPGs" is largely illusory. People want to play particular games, WotC market research shows that they play these games non-exclusively. Strictly speaking, the numbers may well indicate that competition between RPGs and other media is *more* relevant than competition between RPGs.

And this was a very nice example of a slippery slope fallacy. And another strawman.

Nah, I explained it above just fine. It speaks to relevance. I would encourage you to rebut what I write, instead of what you choose to edit it down to, man, but I'm not the boss of you!

The only real question left here is a simple one: Are you choosing to be intellectually dishonest or are you just incapable of participating in a discussion in any other fashion?

Justin Alexander Bacon
http://www.thealexandrian.net

Well, you sure showed me, chief!
 

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Justin Bacon said:
The only real question left here is a simple one: Are you choosing to be intellectually dishonest or are you just incapable of participating in a discussion in any other fashion?

Justin, please do not make statements like this here.
 

eyebeams said:
To shareholders, investors and licensors -- not gamers.

That is a pretty absurd splitting of hairs.

It has already been covered in other posts though and it seems clear that your personal bias / grudge / whatever isn't going to be overcome by any reasoned position.

So whatever.

Go grind your teeth some more, I'll stay over here and keep trying to actually look at the issue from both sides.
 

Merric,
I hate to say it, but you are seen as a WotC fanboy here. I don't think you are at the level some are making you out to be though.

As far as the statements below, Charles is not the only one to make comments like this in public.

The RPG market presently has a distribution/retail system that is antique and ready to break down completely in the "modern" world. Those publishers that are selling into the "book trade" are doing relatively well. The C&GR reports are pretty widely considered a joke, though they can be useful for detecting trends. The several local retailers I have spoken to about them scoff at them (they also don't send in any information).

Those few game stores that provide true service to their customers are, from what I have been told, thriving. One of my local "F"LGS (the "F" is of key importance) has had a great year. Their RPG sales have been as good this year as the year right after 3rd edtion came out. I believe that this is due to the services they offer. They know that they are competing with online stores and go out of their way to provide services that you can't obtain online. Based on sales through their 3 stores, Wizard's is indeed having a great year in 2005.

MerricB said:
Other things I've heard Charles say... alright, seen him post... back up my impression of Wizards doing well:

* The number of people claiming to play D&D has increased by 15% over the past year. (wow!) The estimated total is now 4.6 million people in the USA.

* 2004 at the time had the biggest advertising budget they've had for D&D (to celebrate the 30th anniversary). 2005 increased the budget even more!

* "As I mentioned above, the overall trends are very strong: that 2 million or so regular players from 1999 has grown to over 4 million in 2004. (Monte mentioned that the market research number is probably larger than reality, and I tend to agree--but the trend has been consistent.)"

* "All of our data and experience tells us that, thankfully, new players are entering the marketplace. Indeed, the increase in players clearly tells us that new players are entering the hobby faster than old ones are leaving."

* "We’re doing great! 2004 was probably the best year ever for D&D (that's right: ever), as measured by a wide variety of standards. All of our key trends are up and continuing to accelerate upward. We expect 2005 to be the next best year ever for D&D." (and yes, 2005 was the new best year ever)

Cheers!
 

eyebeams said:
Well, to be frank, if you place your trust in corporate officers for that reason in general, I would say your trust is wildly misplaced. If this is specific to Charles Ryan, I'd be interested in knowing why.

Because he likes his job and doesn't want to lose it, perhaps? I don't find any reasons not to trust him that are as compelling as this.
 

eyebeams, what I said about Justin not speaking that way toward other posters applies equally to you and to anyone else. If you cannot maintain a civil discourse, maybe you could take a couple days off?
 

PatrickLawinger said:
The RPG market presently has a distribution/retail system that is antique and ready to break down completely in the "modern" world. Those publishers that are selling into the "book trade" are doing relatively well. The C&GR reports are pretty widely considered a joke, though they can be useful for detecting trends. The several local retailers I have spoken to about them scoff at them (they also don't send in any information).
These are very important points, and I'm somewhat surprised that they often tend to be "forgotten" in these discussions, although I see some of the same people in all of these threads :D. The C&GR figures look only at a part of the RPG market (game and hobby stores), they have only part of the numbers of this segment (from volunteers) and, last not least, the big slump of sales reported for spring 2005 was simultaneous with a change in their method of data acquisition (which makes those data useless). Nevertheless, the crisis of the conventional distribution/retail system is obvious to everyone, and it's clear that this has consequences for those companies that depend on this system.

I don't use the (F)LGS system and make all my purchases online, not because I don't have a game shop in my vicinity (actually, there's one on my way to work), but because I made this choice. I use different online vendors, but let's just take amazon as a source for - purely anecdotal ;) - observations.

Amazon offers discounts, and these discounts are usually coupled to product that moves or comes from an active distributor. WotC products are (nearly?) always discounted. The same is true for White Wolf stuff. In the same league as WW, we find those companies publishing through WW, like Malhavoc and Necromancer Games. They get the usual "one third off of MSRP" discount and the 24 hours shipment. Necromancer reported a slow but steady increase in sold units per product during the recent months (though coming from low level). If we look at a relatively small company without these benefits, like Goodman Games, we often see that ugly "usually ships in 4 to 6 weeks" tag, and I can only imagine that this hurts sales in a market that has a putative 12 week life cycle per product (in the (F)LGS at least; who brought this up?). This might explain why Goodman Games now used White Wolf for their "Etherscope" project; this should get rid of that ugly tag. Mongoose is an example where we saw a big change for the positive from the beginning of this year on. The discount went up, the delivery times went down; seems to fit Matthew Sprange's claims.

The whole Green Ronin debacle with their distributor was easily visible on amazon. At the turn of 2004/2005, they had 12 week delivery tags on most of their products. Amazon regularly canceled orders of Green Ronin product. Blue Rose was finally marked with "currently unavailable". They still don't offer the book, except through 3rd party vendors. Discounts vanished. Things changed for the better with the Black Industries stuff (WFRP2), but this might be due to GW behind it. Some of the actual Green Ronin stuff starts to re-appear in the system just now, though often still without discount. If you type in the search term "Green Ronin", you find exactly 21 products, and only 3 of those are not from Black Industries. If you look hard, you will find other titles, but still with the usual attributes: "Advanced Gamemaster's Guide, usually ships within 4 to 6 weeks, $1.99 surcharge for "hard to find title" on top of full MSRP (no discount)". That's a nice glimpse on the distribution problem. No wonder that Green Ronin talks of a crisis in the RPG market.
 

Dinkeldog said:
eyebeams, what I said about Justin not speaking that way toward other posters applies equally to you and to anyone else. If you cannot maintain a civil discourse, maybe you could take a couple days off?

Seriously, these threads aren't just the same arguements every time, they're the same posters making the same arguements. ENworld needs to find a way to ban certain people from certain threads. :)
 

eyebeams said:
Sure. Remember how I said that I don't think Charles Ryan is lying? At the same time, he is well able to say, "D&D is having its best year ever!" using data which you and I would probably not describe that way were we to have it in front of us (whether or not he *is* doing this is a different issue). An actual description of net profit/loss and sales by individual SKU are not so prone to massaging. In no way do these statements "speak the same message" to an investor.

eyebeams said:
Well, to be frank, if you place your trust in corporate officers for that reason in general, I would say your trust is wildly misplaced. If this is specific to Charles Ryan, I'd be interested in knowing why.



As a professional who deals with these sorts of things; since Enron and such: the likelyhood that Charles Ryan is lying or misleading is indeed excessively remote. Beyond remote. Why? Becasue the CFO, CEO and he himself will be legally liable (as in jail time, loosing of professional licenses (CPA, CFA, etc) and personal financial liabity). This also goes without saying the liability (legal and civil) of every officer of that company.

I suggest you go to the SEC website and take a peek at the regs that came out since Enron.…

You don’t believe me; than why is it that corps now all have a brand spanking new high level executive position: Compliance Officer (who by the way gets smacked right after the CFO and CEO)

If it is true that industry sales are down and WoTC is having record sales; then obviously those that are buying D20 are buying WoTC products more than ever before; in essense the total sales have shrunk buit WoTC is getting a larger peice of what is left.

The likelyhood that there are less sales is likely do to the fact taht D20 is a young system and lots of sales came out for EVERYONE who is a gamer and played the new D20 to buy all the D20 core books (a MUST buy to play in the system); hence a huge rise in sales - after eveyone has the corebooks; the products get cherry picked by consumers; lower sales.
 
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eyebeams said:
Well no. That'd be you. If you want to frame the state that exists between the industry leaders as one of straightforward competition, then (with some caveats I've noticed), you must accept an absurd definition.

Okay, so you've backed off your original claim to one of "straightforward competition", thereby nicely conceding the point while trying to hide the fact.

Glad we got that settled. Thanks!

Justin Alexander Bacon
http://www.thealexandrian.net
 

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