Deconstructing class abilities for purchase with XP

madelf said:
BESM D20, while indeed having a point-based breakdown [...] is still encumbered with a Class system and Level advancement.
I believe the reason for this was that at the time BESM d20 came out, everyone was still afraid to deviate from the d20 license, which essentially requires you to stick with the PHB class and level system. These days, more and more people are finding that it's worth their while to go OGL-only, which has no such restrictions. If BESM had come out today, I'm guessing they would have decided to go with a non-d20 OGL approach as well.

jmucchiello said:
And why writters don't build on the works of others was addessed in the 2nd and 3rd pages of this thread.
It sounds like Joe here is talking exclusively from the point of view of the writers, whereas Arcady and I are looking at it from the point of the consumers. This is a clear example where what the *designers* want to publish differs from what the *customers* want to buy. Unfortunately, when the desires of the writers and the customers clash, it's pretty clear who's going to lose in the end... both of them.
 

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Conaill said:
It sounds like Joe here is talking exclusively from the point of view of the writers, whereas Arcady and I are looking at it from the point of the consumers. This is a clear example where what the *designers* want to publish differs from what the *customers* want to buy. Unfortunately, when the desires of the writers and the customers clash, it's pretty clear who's going to lose in the end... both of them.
I think it's important for both sets of people to understand the point of view of the other. Yes, I'm a writer, but first and foremost, I'm a consumer (I consume a heck of a lot more than I write, that's for sure). I like to think I know what a consumer wants - he wants the same thing I want... he wants the "best of the best" to become the standard. I hope it was clear from my initial response to your OGL query (where I said, "I wish it worked that way" or words to that effect) that I believe in a perfect world, things would work that way.

However, the consumer also doesn't want to pay for the same old stuff he already bought. So if all I do as a writer is reuse stuff, I'm bound to get into trouble with those who have bought all the sources I'm drawing from. ;)

Trust me, writers would love to be able to grab from any source they wanted without fear of repurcussion - but the reality of the Intellectual Property world is that it's a very sticky beast and it's very easy for your IP to become "contaminated" if you are exposed to other peoples' IP. Thus, even though we as writers would LOVE to be able to do what consumers want, there are significant legal problems involved in doing so. I hope consumers understand that part of it... that even if I want what you want, I may not be ABLE to give it to you. ;)

What can be done, then? How can writers effectively and easily deliver what consumers want? The answer winds up being, "they can't - at least not yet." The corollary is that "they will only become able to do so if there becomes a sufficiently large pool of work that is clearly OGC to work from." The next step, of course, is establishing that pool - it will only exist in the future if OGC designations are made both clear and generous today.

The problem is that some publishers see this as a sort of zero-sum game. If Publisher A has a bang-up idea, and doesn't make it OGC (or obfuscates it as much as possible with regard to re-use), that effectively gives him the ability to re-use that rule while denying its use to everyone else. He gets a competitive edge because HIS products can use this new, better concept and nobody else's can. After all, Publisher A reasons, why should I help out Publisher B by giving him access to this bang-up idea? He'll just cut into my sales of future products because I'll be effectively competing against my own work!

Obviously, not all publishers believe this way. WotC, for one, seems to believe that if they make something OGC, it effectively increases the exposure of that something and eventually drives sales of the original product.

Myself, I'm not a businessman and I don't pretend to be. I make my OGC designations very broad and very generous - and very clear (I hope) because it is my express desire to increase the pool of available OGC to the point where we CAN get to the point of "the best rules becoming commonplace and used by everybody." Maybe that will hurt my product's sales down the line.

But I'm a consumer first - if I help generate that "critical mass" of OGC that allows the "best rules" to become commonplace, I win! As I said, I consume more products than I write. With that in mind, why WOULDN'T I want the best stuff commonplace? So I personally make my rules very open to try to help push the way toward the critical mass of "perfect rules" - maybe I haven't even contributed ONE perfect rule, but if one of my imperfect ones sparks a later writer to write the perfect one, and then he declares it as OGC, my contribution is meaningful. I'll never know unless I make sure my stuff is Open.

Of course, that attitude is no way to run a business... in some ways, it's "giving away the shop..." and that's the problem (for the record, I *Don't* think generous OGC designations are "giving away the shop" since I think if you do a product right the first time, nobody will be able to copy the OGC fast enough into a competing product to dent your sales - and if you didn't do it right the first time, that's what's stopping your success, not your OGC designation).

At the end of the day, RPG companies run on very slim margins. A company that does things that are good for the hobby but bad for business probably isn't going to last - in other words, you need to be a good business. That means if you subscribe to the theory that opening up content lets others profit of your work to the point where they're cutting into your profits, it's not a good idea to open it up. If you don't open it up, of course, we never get close to that Critical Mass of OGC.

It's a complicated game, business. ;)

I hope that you understand where I'm going with all of this, Conail. I don't do it because of ego or anything else - I do it out of practicality. If the world were perfect, I sure wouldn't avoid other peoples' products! But it's not, and so I have to account for those imperfections somewhat - and unfortunately part of that means both writers and consumers suffer. Consumers suffer because they don't get what they want from writers. Writers suffer because they CAN'T give to consumers what they want.

However, ultimately, the blame lies with neither party - it lies with our laws that protect "Intellectual Property." And since it is those laws that allow the writer to make a wage in the first place, thus allowing him to gain the capital necessary to commission artwork and buy layout programs and pay his electric bill for his computer to write on... well... I think it may be a necessary evil. Until the day comes where everyone's needs are met, and there's no reason to be cautious of lettting go of that which can put food on your table and shelter over your head, this problem will exist, because it is unwise to give your work away for free if you can't easily make ends meet without "not giving it away." :(

Sorry for the jump into the political realm; I just hope you realize that writers, in many ways, are as frustrated that they can't give you what you want as you are that you're not getting it.

--The Sigil
 

Conaill said:
It sounds like Joe here is talking exclusively from the point of view of the writers, whereas Arcady and I are looking at it from the point of the consumers. This is a clear example where what the *designers* want to publish differs from what the *customers* want to buy. Unfortunately, when the desires of the writers and the customers clash, it's pretty clear who's going to lose in the end... both of them.
Didn't you ask why don't writters reuse more OGC? I'm not employed by a big RPG company. My own website (which I really need to update, I know) says right at the top: A vanity imprint for veteran gamers. I write for myself. If customers like my work, I make a little extra spending money. If I come up with a way to do something that is different than some other way it has been done it is because I think my way is better. If I didn't think it was better, I would have written it at all.

And I am a customer and frankly I prefer to have different spins on various rules. There are a bunch of naval combat rules out there. I can choose the one that works the way I think it should work. I'm not stuck with just one version that I think has a bunch of holes in it. If I was stuck with that one, I'd pitch the whole thing and write my own: which is exactly what I'd do as a writer. But then I've rewritten the rules to games in the past before. I've had house rules that barely resemble the original game in the games I've played. I tinker. I'm a consumer and you're a consumer and we want different things. Maybe the market isn't big enough for the both of us. Or maybe the perfect, reuses to your satisfaction product is just not out yet. Time and sales will tell. I just guess you aren't my customer. C'est la vie. Other people are and that's good enough for me.

On the flip side, I'm also all for reuse. I thought I should point that out. If someone else wants to take the time to research OGC and finds my material, they are welcome to reuse it. My stuff is generally 100% open with only the product title and company name PI'd. Just don't ask me to reuse stuff.
 

Pros and Cons

Came real close to buying your book Sigil and will plunk down for it later today. But, what Mr. Mucchiello said brought something home to me. If you
use a points-based system, you lose the flavour of the game itself. I have BESM and other game systems like them and they are fun, but they aren't
D&D. I personally don't even think 3.5 has the proper feel about it, but I guess
I'm still smarting from the switch from 2nd to 3rd. I believe once you go down the road of letting everyone pick and choose what skills they want, you are taking all of the inventiveness away from the DM. What if he doesn't want characters who can backstab after casting a spell and then step up and fight toe to toe? Maybe that doesn't fit with the vision that he or she has. By having character classes that the DM picks, you allow him to create an atmosphere and culture. You only have to look at real life to see that classes
have existed for eons. Archetypes like the Cossack and the Assassin existed
because there was a set of skills that was taught to everyone. Likewise, you don't see Merlin refered to as, "That guy who knows some cool spells and also has some experience in diplomacy." He is called a Sorcerer for a reason.
 

Conaill said:
Never said that. But I do think game designers should not keep themselves ignorant of existing material *on purpose*. I can understand that someone may want to start from a creatively "clean" slate, so as not to bias the flow of ideas. But I would think it's only natural that at a later stage, a designer would check how his ideas mesh with what's already been published.

Um, forgive me if I misunderstood, but now it sounds like you're avocating that d20 publishers BOTH:

1) reuse and recycle the good parts of appropriate pre-existing OGL material, so as to contribute to a "best practices" method. (there's a side issue here regarding the validity of persuing the One True Method, but I'll refrain from picking two nits at once!) :-)

2) wait until they're already invested a significant amount of their (possibly limited) resources of time and money into 'product x' and THEN discover that their new product would break the "best practices" model.

That seems unfair to the publishers and I think would end up stifling more creativity than it enhances...


Ok, not for the firearms rules in particular, but I have for example expressed my frustration about the panoply of incompatible naval rulebooks out there.

Again, perhaps I reading you wrong, but... if there are 3 products that cover the same topic, but in different ways - so different that they are actually incompatible, then what is the likelyhood that you would have wanted to use all three together in the first place even if they had been compatible? Isn't it more likely that you would have decided that you liked "A", but not "B" and "C" and only used the one set of rules anyway?


Of course. It's also entirely possible that some chunks of it suit him just fine, and that he would think that it wouldn't make much sense to come up with alternative rules that are almost but not exactly the same. Or - heaven forbid! - he might actually notice a good idea he hadn't thought of already. Or maybe he might want to focus a littel more on a particular aspect that BESM hasn't covered very well.

I don't know about anyone else, but this sounds really critical of the author on a level that is bordering on personal. This is an undercurrent that I've noticed in all your posts on this topic thread thus far. I don't know the author or the product at all, yet your pseudo-sarcastic tone is instinctively making me want to side with him regardless. This creates the necessity in me to overcome the emotional bias you're inducing just so that I can continue to reasonably and objectively consider your points. This style of debate (intentional or not) isn't really conducive to you getting your point across.


But I think a lot of us were hoping that it would have the same effect as what the Open Software movement is aiming to accomplish: public discussion and improvement of the system as a whole. Alternative rules get proposed, bad rules get thrown out, people settle on a subset of "best practices" and continue to build on those.

Instead we see an explosion of more rules, more feats, more prestige classes, more everything... and no sign of consolidation and standardisation whatsoever. No wonder the d20 industry seems to be going through a slump right now.

First off, despite the admittedly huge similarities, the Open Gaming movement and the Open Software movement are not really the same thing and thus not everything translates across when making comparasions. For instance, one SIGNIFICANT difference is that in the open software world, the end user doesn't usually interact with the open code itself, they use the resultant software. By contrast, the end user in RPGs are always interacting directly with the open gaming systems themselves. This single difference alone limits the degree to which one can directly compare them and their patterns of evotution and behaviour as "vechicles of innovation".

While I agree (at a basic level) with your assertion that multiple systems will converge into better systems via a near darwinistic system of keeping the good and dropping the bad, I very much disagree with your statements that the RPG industry as a whole is suffering from some supposed slump due to an implied stagnation caused from not having already adopted a "best practices" approach to D20 publishing as a whole. This makes the IMHO erronous assumption that the current Open Gaming era of the RPG industry is mature enough to have reached the stage where such convergences are due to occur. I believe that such convergences will occur, that there will be multiple "best practices", and that the net result will be a positive thing for the gaming community as a whole. As for this "slump"... I fail to see how higher levels of sales per month of rpg material than this hobby has seen for a very long time is a slump. Perhaps if one looks at the number of poor performers in the industry and neglects to weigh this against the sheer numbers of players in this industry, then I can see how such a conclusion can be mistakenly be drawn. However, in this time of a literal proliferation of systems, settings, companies, resource books, and even product delivery methods (trad. printing, POD, PDF, etc.) I find it hard to see any supporting evidence for any kind of slump. We're still in the early stages, the "discovery period" when just what Open Gaming "is" is still being developed. If you want to see a slump in the rpg industry, cast your eyes back to the pre-D20 endtimes of TSR and the initial years of the M:TG-fueled CCG craze... now THAT was a slump!!! :-)
 

Well maybe its not a hijack

[hijack?]

I wonder if you can settle a dispute from a while back as to whether the generic warrior, generic spellcaster and generic expert are equivalent, or if the generic expert got the shaft (I am referring to Unearthed Arcana's optional rules of allowing only the 3 generic classes). I am personally convinced that the generic expert got the shaft, and that it could use a few more skill points, or an extra feat, or something, but would be interested in what your system number crunches out for these three classes.

-PM

[/hijack?]
 
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My only concern with this system is it would mean the death of classes. Honestly, if you can sneak attack, cast a cone of cold, turn undead, play an instrument and charm folks, and are a genius with the long bow, not only do your opponents not know who you are, YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER!

Consequently, there wouldn't be a "class" reference on a player's character sheet, only a name & the character's abilities and such.
 

dogboy said:
I'm still smarting from the switch from 2nd to 3rd. I believe once you go down the road of letting everyone pick and choose what skills they want, you are taking all of the inventiveness away from the DM.
You obviously haven't met Contact's DM - I think even the mice had class levels...

More variety works for both ends. Opening up the ability pick everything just allows you to create real people.

I haven't seen Sigil's product, but if it's like BESM d20 it allows you to do away with classes and levels (some players can take them, other can just take the points, or a mix) and in the exchange you get the ability to model anyone who fits the given setting - not just the archetypes on the polar extremes.
 

Tuzenbach said:
My only concern with this system is it would mean the death of classes. Honestly, if you can sneak attack, cast a cone of cold, turn undead, play an instrument and charm folks, and are a genius with the long bow, not only do your opponents not know who you are, YOU DON'T KNOW EITHER!

Consequently, there wouldn't be a "class" reference on a player's character sheet, only a name & the character's abilities and such.
How is it in real life - do you have levels in class "student"? Or "worker"? No? But nontheless there are professions - e.g. the manager. Furthermore, look at the profession "medical doctor": You know, what a doctor can do in general, but there are specialists: surgeons, for example. And still you wouldn't know exactly, what a certain human being is able to do.

Classes are simple the embodiment of certain archetypes - but are these embodiments the one and only? In Arcana Unearthed the classes cover the same spectrum of the classes in the PHB and are still different from those - are they less valid than the normal core classes?

From my perspective, the problem with classes is their obvious strength: The forming of a certain image. This image helps enormously at the beginning, but more and more the wish for more variation* pops up. But if one wants to mesh two classes for having a jack-of-two-trades, we either enter the realm of multiclassing - or have to design a jack-of-two-trades class. In the end, a free buy-the-ability system is the best solution, I can think of. The problem of having no classes to write on the sheet is only a problem of lacking a new (and with such a system required) perspective. A character won't describe himselve as wizard/rouge, but as a powerful sorcerer, who is talented with blades. Where those abilities come - does that matter?

*This variation is seen in the vast feats available for the fighter - no two fighters need to be the same.


Now to the Sigil:

I've read the book - and I like it so much! I've written one email to you, but one question, which is interesting for the public, I've missed:

Why have sorcerers spend more XP as wizards? The general opinion is, that sorcerers are weaker as wizards, so under your system they get the shaft. The reason is, that sorcerers don't have only to pay for caster levels, access to spell lists and spell slots, but for the spells known, while a wizard is content with the first three. I understand, that the last factor has to be paid for, but I think, that somewhere is an error.
 

RuleMaster said:
Why have sorcerers spend more XP as wizards? The general opinion is, that sorcerers are weaker as wizards, so under your system they get the shaft. The reason is, that sorcerers don't have only to pay for caster levels, access to spell lists and spell slots, but for the spells known, while a wizard is content with the first three. I understand, that the last factor has to be paid for, but I think, that somewhere is an error.
The quick & easy answer is that the Wizard winds up paying more for Feats, as he gets 5 bonus Feats over the course of his career (Scribe Scroll, and one Metamagic or Item Creation Feat at levesl 5, 10, 15, and 20). So yes, sorcerers spend more on spells, but wizards spend those points that they "saved" on Feats instead.

--The Sigil
 

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