Deconstructing class abilities for purchase with XP

[The Sigil]

Let me dig up my question to Sigil from page 2 again... guess it got lost in all the OGL hubbub:

WRT to the "quadratic scaling" - some of the abilities scale linearly, some scale quadratically. In general, abilities that simply "increment" - increasing BAB or Caster Level, for instance, scale linearly, because there's generally not a lot of synergy. In general, abilities like this cost Y times the new bonus where Y is some constant. Just like the fighter needs 1000 XP to get to 2nd level (and get a +2 BAB) then another 2000 XP to get to 3rd level (to increment his BAB to +3) and so on, these abilities scale in cost linearly.

Abilities that are "choices" - mostly Feats, but also (to a lesser degree) saving throws and access to spells - tend to scale quadratically, because there's a lot more synergy that is involved because you're not picking a specific ability - you're picking "one choice from a huge menu that may or may not have good synergy from other stuff." ("Why Saving Throws?" You ask? Because Saving Throws tend to be applicable to a whole lot of situations, such as avoiding traps, resisting monster abilities, throwing of spell effects, and so on - contrast with BAB which just affects swing-and-hit or swing-and-miss in combat).

While the "synergy" argument is a convenient one, I guess, the real answer is that the quadratic scaling in these cases yielded the set of equations that offered a "best fit" line between re-building the 11 Core Classes and the "Core" XP chart.

--The Sigil

 

[Conaill]

While the "synergy" argument is a convenient one, I guess, the real answer is that the quadratic scaling in these cases yielded the set of equations that offered a "best fit" line between re-building the 11 Core Classes and the "Core" XP chart.

Hm. Now that part seems quite surprising to me.

I agree with your synergy reasoning... a combat-type character with the same number of abilities as a 20th level fighter but built with your system would likely be more powerful than a Ftr20, so you should probably charge him more XP for allowing him to pick and choose his synergies. (Essentially the same reason why I think 25 point-buy is fairly well balanced with 4d6 rolled stats... the additional flexibility gives you lots of extra power. But that's a discussion for another time...)

But I hadn't expected that quadratic scaling would actually give a better fit with the existing classes, especially at high levels. Don't you get in trouble with classes that focus heavily on one aspect, like a Ftr 20 with all the feats he gets, or a Wiz 20 or Clr 20 with all those spells at his disposal? At least for those subset of classes, you should get a better fit with a linear scale.

I guess the better fit is because of the "mixed" classes, like the ranger, bard, etc. which don't specialize in just one of these quadratically scaled abilities?

[ObDisclaimer: no, I'm not picking on Sigil. Just curious. ]

 

[The Sigil]

Hm. Now that part seems quite surprising to me.

I agree with your synergy reasoning... a combat-type character with the same number of abilities as a 20th level fighter but built with your system would likely be more powerful than a Ftr20, so you should probably charge him more XP for allowing him to pick and choose his synergies. (Essentially the same reason why I think 25 point-buy is fairly well balanced with 4d6 rolled stats... the additional flexibility gives you lots of extra power. But that's a discussion for another time...)

But I hadn't expected that quadratic scaling would actually give a better fit with the existing classes, especially at high levels. Don't you get in trouble with classes that focus heavily on one aspect, like a Ftr 20 with all the feats he gets, or a Wiz 20 or Clr 20 with all those spells at his disposal? At least for those subset of classes, you should get a better fit with a linear scale.

I guess the better fit is because of the "mixed" classes, like the ranger, bard, etc. which don't specialize in just one of these quadratically scaled abilities?

[ObDisclaimer: no, I'm not picking on Sigil. Just curious. ]

You have to tread carefully here. I never said spells at your disposal scale quadratically (they actually scale on a skewed linear curve); rather your cost for access to spell levels scales quadratically. Everything else to do with spellcasting is linear (or in some cases, doesn't really increase at all).

Rangers and monks, for example, have a lot of extra Feats and class abilities they're gaining access to. Barbarians, of course, are improving their rage; rogues are upping their sneak attacks and so on. Everything eventually works out, though... that's the thing... it was basically a matter of "push this lever and this button pops up... so I push the button and this other spring comes out... so I push the spring back in and this handle drops... so I push this handle and the lever pops up..." explaining why and how everything balances would probably take longer to explain than the book took to write.

--The Sigil

 

[jgbrowning]

For the first time in a long time I've felt that nasty little twitter of excitment in my stomach when reading a gaming book. This means that I'm going to have to so something with these rules.

First, I suppose I'm going to have to read them very carefully.

First question: Do you address the rogue's ability to disarm magic traps with disable device compared with other classes disable device?

Thanks!

joe b.

 

[Kichwas]

To be honest, I haven't really checked out BESM. I knew BESM released an SRD, and I knew it was an anime-based game, and since I have little interest in Anime (that's not title Record of Lodoss War) and less interest in Anime RPGs, I didn't think to check it out... and I certainly didn't realize it was a point buy system until it was pointed out in this thread.

I'm actually taking the BESM d20 engine and using it to rebuild my Fahla setting, along with a novella I'm writing.

I recently turned down a BESM tri-stat game, with the best group of gamers I ever had over the years, because I've come to realize I'm not at all idealistic, and I just can't play heroes... They on the other hand, enjoy a light somewhat comedic style.

I'm not really an anime fan at all, and tend to find most of it worse than the 'He-Man' like cartoons that were on TV when I was a kid (pretty bad stuff, and Anime is even worse once you get past the flashy graphics and see the actual story).

BUT...


The BESM d20 engine really impressed me, and I'm using to build what amounts to a very dark setting, but not dark in the way gamers think dark (which I see as comic bookish - I found the Book of Vile Darkness to be mroe like 'action-horror' and thus almost comedy than actually dark - like a drive by shooting, junkies, and just plain -street real evil-... the kind of stuff I grew up around.)

Anyway I'm rambling...

The engine to BESM d20 impressed me, and I plan to use it, but not the flavor of anime...

 

[Kichwas]

-in reference to design without seeing what else is out there of a similar vein-
I have to admit I'm not a game designer, but I am a customer. And as a customer I have to say that I really, really dislike this way of designing games in an OGL environment!!

OGL is supposed to encourage standardisation, reuse, and building on top of existing work.


A&H is totally, completely, utterly incompatible with anything else, and I for one am not going to touch it with a 10' pole!

I agree with you, and I feel the industry should work to shut out authors and publishers who try to keep their work from entering into the OGL realm of things, though I have no idea how they would do it.

I do find myself making selective purchases based on how well I can fit the products together with other products I own.

For example, I considered Green Ronin's Witch's Handbook and Citizen Game's Way of The Witch to be good buys because they fit with the DMG Witch as well as with Relics and Rituals ritual system...

I've enjoyed MnM Superlink concept - which works to encourage people to use a standard for super heroes and d20, and I frankly ignore all other d20 supers competitors - focusing only on those who are Superlink.

 

[Kichwas]

And as for BESM's "quite a stir" I hadn't heard of their point buy system either. But Mutants & Masterminds does have a point buy system; one that actually made quite a stir. I'm pretty sure BESM did not build off of that one.

I am to MnM what Nightfall is to Scarred Lands...

But I personally find that it scales down poorly. Below PL 10 it starts to have trouble. It works at PL 8, and it can almost work at PL 5, but already by that point you've lost a lot of what makes it a great supers engine.

I use MnM for supers, where I feel it belongs. I would not use it for a mundane or even cinematic power level genre.

I -think- BESM d20 can handle to normal Cinematic power level, but while I've read it I have yet to use it. I'll get back to you all after I use it. I used to think SaS was the perfect supers game after all, then I started using it... It's great, but it's not as good as MnM.

 

[Kichwas]

BESM predates D20.

Not BESM d20, which is the subject of the conversation.

BESM d20 is largely a melding on of BESM into d20.

Half of it is a reprint of BESM, with the base changed from 2d6 roll under to d20 roll over. It then goes on to fix some of the issues people who have them have with tri-sta BESM, by introducing things that people who don't like d20 will not like ( ), such as classes, feats, and what is mostly the d20 combat system but without AoOs and with armor stopping damage in a way similar to Unearthed Arcana rather than stopping to-hit rolls.

Half of BESM d20 thus does indeed predate d20. Its kind of to d20 like what OSX is to UNIX and MAC. It's both, neither, and one looking like the other all at the same time.

 

[lp]

Well this is going in my 'buy soon' pile, I'm not sure if I will use it, but I know it will be interesting to ponder.. plus it's a cheap pdf and easy to rationalize. I do have one question before I plunk my $$$ down, does it let you break down all class features? IE Can I easily take features from non-core material and give it to my character?

 

[Tessarael]

Sigil, did you get the XP pricing of the abilities for the core classes to balance out at 20th level? What about at 1st level? How did you handle the front loading on some classes?

In particular, I'm curious regards prices for Fighter vs. Bard vs. Wizard vs. Cleric. In my own experience of trying to build such a system, it's extremely difficult if you price abilities at a flat cost per increment. The scaling cost per increment might solve the problem, if you do it right.

Thanks.