Decrease Ritual Casting Times

[cheshire_grin]

For adventurers in a dungeon to say "ten minutes is far too long - we'll be bound to be caught!" is just being silly, especially when short rests, which are generally taken all the time, are 5 minutes.

I think that's a good point -- compare also, in terms of fluff, how long Gandalf spent trying to open the door into Moria. Ten minutes isn't all that long, to be honest; it's long enough that the DM can plausibly interrupt it for story purposes, but short enough that it's equally plausible not to.

 

[DracoSuave]

For the most part, if you have time for a short rest, you have time for a ten minute ritual.

They made rituals take time and be costly because they didn't want a single feat to invalidate the idea of skilled characters being able to do mundane tasks. Rituals are supposed to be the slow, but certain route, where you have a really good chance of a good success, without a lot of noise or training in the truly applicable skill where others could do it mundanely and swiftly.

Think of it this way. You can have it reliably, quietly, or quickly. Pick two.

Reliable and quick is straight out knocking the door down with brute force, but it won't be quiet.
Quiet and quick is picking the lock, but it's not always going to be successful if the lock is too advanced.
Reliable and quiet is the ritual... but it's not going to be quick.

If you want rituals to be quicker, please understand that in doing so you're doing a -lot- of damage to the skill system just so a ritual caster can feel godlike at doing other character's schticks. That's not good design, imho. Rituals are the final resort, not the first resort.

It took me ten minutes to hammer out this response. Not a lot of time at all.

 

[Marshall]

But you skipped the 'expensive' component of rituals which throws your whole theory out of whack.

 

[ventu]

some weeks ago i suggested some house rules that could allow faster ritual casting:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/4e-fan-creations-house-rules/237722-comments-some-house-rules.html

 

[Herald of I]

If you want rituals to be quicker, please understand that in doing so you're doing a -lot- of damage to the skill system just so a ritual caster can feel godlike at doing other character's schticks. That's not good design, imho. Rituals are the final resort, not the first resort.

I think you're overestimating the skill impact of rituals. Most of them don't do things that skill checks could handle. No amount of Arcana or History checks is going to result in a Comprehend Languages ritual. The ones that do, don't seem worth using often to enough to look abusive.

Further, rituals are really expensive by comparison to normal skill use, particularly at low levels. I don't see my players wasting that much cash. I really don't see my crafting obsessed wizard wasting that much money.

It took me ten minutes to hammer out this response. Not a lot of time at all.

For adventurers in a dungeon to say "ten minutes is far too long - we'll be bound to be caught!" is just being silly, especially when short rests, which are generally taken all the time, are 5 minutes.

It doesn't really matter how long ten minutes is; when presented to players used to thinking in 6 second rounds, it borders on an eternity. It just doesn't feel very magical at all, and thanks to the jittery players I've gotten (think someone assigned to ask for a Spot check with a 30 second timer), the very idea of doing something loud and involved for that long in the middle of a dungeon is anathema.

Also, the monetary cost of rituals has made them public property in my campaigns. While only the wizard and cleric know any, everyone pitches in for components, and to use or not use a ritual is very much a group decision.

 

[DracoSuave]

Regardless, let's say you have a Leader in the group, and between fights you decide he's using Healing Word to heal. BAM. You have ten minutes to do your ritual.

Ten minutes is -nothing-. That's why the gold cost as well, so that you have a time frame that is short and useable (ten minutes) but a cost that prevents you from doing it every time you have a problem.

Using the money argument implies somehow that ten minutes is anything more than two short rests, something characters take -all the time.- It's fine as it is.

 

[DracoSuave]

I think you're overestimating the skill impact of rituals. Most of them don't do things that skill checks could handle. No amount of Arcana or History checks is going to result in a Comprehend Languages ritual. The ones that do, don't seem worth using often to enough to look abusive.

No, that one replicates a feat. But I see your point. It doesn't argue that rituals should take less time, however.

Further, rituals are really expensive by comparison to normal skill use, particularly at low levels. I don't see my players wasting that much cash. I really don't see my crafting obsessed wizard wasting that much money.

Which is fine. Wizards shouldn't be hemorhaging the party fund just to play Tenser's Floating Disc every five seconds.

It doesn't really matter how long ten minutes is; when presented to players used to thinking in 6 second rounds, it borders on an eternity. It just doesn't feel very magical at all, and thanks to the jittery players I've gotten (think someone assigned to ask for a Spot check with a 30 second timer), the very idea of doing something loud and involved for that long in the middle of a dungeon is anathema.

Don't they take short rests? That's -half the time- right there spent accomplishing -nothing.- 4e doesn't even have wandering monster rolls for pete's sake. Your party's skittishness is based on things that don't exist in the game. If there's an encounter coming up, it doesn't matter if it's one minute, five minutes, ten minutes, or two hours, they won't have time to do the damn ritual. 4e is more story based, not randomcraphappens based.

Also, the monetary cost of rituals has made them public property in my campaigns. While only the wizard and cleric know any, everyone pitches in for components, and to use or not use a ritual is very much a group decision.

Which is great, but doesn't address the time issue at all.

Simply put, is ten minutes too long? I don't think so. Hell, there are games where all you do is play wizards casting spells, every single character, and the equivalent to rituals takes three hours -minimum.- Does that make it feel any less magical? If your players have trouble with the immersion, then task the ritual caster with describing what it is he does for the ritual. Make it come alive and make it part of the story.

If ten minutes is an eternity, how long do you plan on adventuring in a day? Dungeons can take -hours- to plot out, travel, etc. Ten minutes is -nothing- in many situations, and in the ones where it isn't, then a ritual is probably the innapropriate answer to the questions the dungeon provides anyways.

 

[Herald of I]

Don't they take short rests? That's -half the time- right there spent accomplishing -nothing.- 4e doesn't even have wandering monster rolls for pete's sake. Your party's skittishness is based on things that don't exist in the game. If there's an encounter coming up, it doesn't matter if it's one minute, five minutes, ten minutes, or two hours, they won't have time to do the damn ritual. 4e is more story based, not randomcraphappens based.

I agree here. As a DM if I need to interrupt a ritual, I'm going to interrupt the ritual and it hardly matters how long it is. This much more of a player taste issue, and mine really don't like ten minutes. The sense of danger around standing still that long, is really ultimate a flavor consideration. My party would certainly feel safer about using magic if it was just a committment of a minute, even though the time in question has no bearing on the game.

Simply put, is ten minutes too long? I don't think so. Hell, there are games where all you do is play wizards casting spells, every single character, and the equivalent to rituals takes three hours -minimum.- Does that make it feel any less magical? If your players have trouble with the immersion, then task the ritual caster with describing what it is he does for the ritual. Make it come alive and make it part of the story.

Out of curiosity, what game are you referencing? I'm guessing Mage, but I can't find an ST, so I haven't had incentive to get too well acquainted with the rules.

It's not a lack of immersion thing; in fact if anything it's too much of an immersion thing. My wizard loves talking about drawing arcane symbols etc. My other players go stir crazy imagining their characters standing warily around that long.

Short rests are necessary. Regardless of how wary my players feel, they need to take them, unlike rituals which they'd rather do without altogether, much to the ritual casters' dismay.

If ten minutes is an eternity, how long do you plan on adventuring in a day? Dungeons can take -hours- to plot out, travel, etc. Ten minutes is -nothing- in many situations, and in the ones where it isn't, then a ritual is probably the inappropriate answer to the questions the dungeon provides anyways.

This is probably just an area we're going to have to agree to disagree. Of course dungeons take a long time to explore, but that exploration is the primary drive of the game. Ten minutes simply feels like to long to be an option an adventuring party would consider, though this might just be my group's particular outlook on DnD.

I'm beginning to think it's a 3rd edition attitude we're carrying over. While my group definitely approves of pushing utility magic down the power scale, slowing it down this much just feels wrong for DnD as we know it.

 

[DracoSuave]

I agree here. As a DM if I need to interrupt a ritual, I'm going to interrupt the ritual and it hardly matters how long it is. This much more of a player taste issue, and mine really don't like ten minutes. The sense of danger around standing still that long, is really ultimate a flavor consideration. My party would certainly feel safer about using magic if it was just a committment of a minute, even though the time in question has no bearing on the game.

But is feeling safer better for the game in the end? Sometimes feeling safer isn't exactly 'adventurous.'

That's for you to decide.

Out of curiosity, what game are you referencing? I'm guessing Mage, but I can't find an ST, so I haven't had incentive to get too well acquainted with the rules.

Mage: The Awakening, to be exact, altho other games have similiar set ups, Ars Magica, for instance. And it's hard to say they have less of a magical feel, given that's all they're about.

It's not a lack of immersion thing; in fact if anything it's too much of an immersion thing. My wizard loves talking about drawing arcane symbols etc. My other players go stir crazy imagining their characters standing warily around that long.

The trick here is to give each character moments where they're doing something involved while the others help. Rituals don't take any actual play time, other actions can also be kludged in the same way.

Short rests are necessary. Regardless of how wary my players feel, they need to take them, unlike rituals which they'd rather do without altogether, much to the ritual casters' dismay.

It has more to do with the players' attitudes then. They can't even complain the ritual caster's hogging hours of game time, seeing as the actual mechanics of it are simple and quick. It's not really fair to the one player that the other players, who are supposed to be fighting professionals, acting like toddlers with ADHD on a sugar rush when a problem is being solved.

This is probably just an area we're going to have to agree to disagree. Of course dungeons take a long time to explore, but that exploration is the primary drive of the game. Ten minutes simply feels like to long to be an option an adventuring party would consider, though this might just be my group's particular outlook on DnD.

Yet these same groups will spend hours poking and prodding every nook and cranny for treasure and gold... but if someone actually wants to spend the ten minutes needed to -get at it-....

It's an attitude problem, not a problem with ritual's casting time, in my view.

I'm beginning to think it's a 3rd edition attitude we're carrying over. While my group definitely approves of pushing utility magic down the power scale, slowing it down this much just feels wrong for DnD as we know it.

As an aside, how many other games does this group have experience with? The magic system is still 'Spend Resource, Solve Problem' which other systems are rather loathe to implement, in favor of greater risk-reward based mechanics.

 

[Herald of I]

It's an attitude problem, not a problem with ritual's casting time, in my view.

I think this is completely right, and ultimately what our back and forth is about. As my group feels pretty much all the same about this, it makes far more sense to just change the rules slightly to fit our style of play then to try to convince ourselves to change our gaming paradigm.