D&D 3.x Deepwood Sniper PrC - How Easy To Use In a 3.5E Game?

[Legildur]

Just a heads up, that's all. I played a similar class in my last high-level game and boy, the first time I made an 80 point hit, you could hear the jaws dropping around the table.

Of course, I've been playing a swordsage dealing 100-point hits in my current game, so I guess I never learn....

It's a 3rd ed thing that some people are still struggling to come to terms with.

Our glaive-wielding half-orc barbarian 13 knocked out 111 hit points in one swing on a crit the other night (most of it wasted of course) just using Rage and Power Attack for 10 points. Big numbers are pretty easy to come by without even really trying.

But for some reason, people are more willing to accept it from a melee character than a ranged character.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

PrC here: http://www.zipworld.com.au/~hong/dnd/int_archery.htm The character was created at 12th level.

This is slightly different to the DWS, since it's possible for a DWS to get a super hit as part of a full attack (and in fact get multiple super hits in one round). The PrC above trades the full attack for the super hit.

The Called Shot feat that is on the site you linked to looks interesting Hong. Basically a Power Attack feat for ranged weapons.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Abraxas]

By 10th level (Ranger 6/Fighter 2/Deepwood Sniper 2) my character would do 4d8+48 (ave 66) on a crit vs a favored enemy. The character also had 4 attacks per round in a full attack.

By changing 1 feat it could have been 4d8+56 (ave 74)
By changing my initial stat arrangement it could have been 4d8+60 (ave 78)

By 12th level the character had a magebane bow. Against arcane casters of a race that were favored enemies the character could hit for 4d8+56+2d6 on a crit (ave 81). The character also had an assortment of bane arrows - damage on a crit then bumped up to 4d8+56+4d6 (ave 88).

It really depends on the character build and equipment. Of course, we had fighter characters with two handed weapons that did as much or more. The surprise came about because my character could do this from 185 feet away.

 

[Graf]

The class is very popular with players, despite being outside of core because of its high power level and disruptive effects on gameplay.

Basically you can hide far off in the trees and blast stuff. Which isn't generally fun for the other PCs and leads to issues for game play.

If the player is generally a fun player (or you do lots of wood-lands style military manuvers and want to support the "you killed the bbg at 1000 yards" type play) you may want to allow it.

High-power PrCs are good for enhancing weaker combinations of character classes. For archetypes that are alrealy "fully powered" PrCs that amp the power rating and remove restrictions tend to the straw that does in the long suffering camel.

 

[Olaf the Stout]

The class is very popular with players, despite being outside of core because of its high power level and disruptive effects on gameplay.

Basically you can hide far off in the trees and blast stuff. Which isn't generally fun for the other PCs and leads to issues for game play.

If the player is generally a fun player (or you do lots of wood-lands style military manuvers and want to support the "you killed the bbg at 1000 yards" type play) you may want to allow it.

High-power PrCs are good for enhancing weaker combinations of character classes. For archetypes that are alrealy "fully powered" PrCs that amp the power rating and remove restrictions tend to the straw that does in the long suffering camel.

My player is currently a Fighter 6/Sorcerer 1 (was headed for Arcane Archer, hence the Sorcerer level) so I wouldn't say that he is any higher powered than any other straight class. He does have a Dex 21 though (soon to be Dex 22) that certainly helps him though.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Graf]

My player is currently a Fighter 6/Sorcerer 1 (was headed for Arcane Archer, hence the Sorcerer level) so I wouldn't say that he is any higher powered than any other straight class. He does have a Dex 21 though (soon to be Dex 22) that certainly helps him though.

Given that arcane archer is often considered weak and you have poor synergy with your classes Deepwoods Sniper may give you a nice power bump. However I think that the PrC's fundimental lone-wolf combat style doesn't work with most DnD groups.

Basically the fundimental problem with the class (and the reason I think we've never seen it reprinted despite a lot of popularity with players) is insurmountable issue that the PrC player wants to enage his/her foes at long range from cover.
Properly cheezed the class can take out a CR +2 or +3 monster with little risk (people usually mention dragon hunting as a good example). Unless the rest of the group is unusual they're not going to participate in the combat.

While that level of long range destructive power is sometimes availible to straight spellcasters the limits of spellcasting (few uses per day, SR) prevent it from being as problematic.

 

[satori01]

Of course a Windwall spell, Gusting Wind and other magical defensive measures can render Archery absolutely ineffectual.

As for attacking a monster at extreme long range. Wizards quite honestly do it better, as there are no range increments for spells. Standard D&D math says 13 1/2 encounters of CR = to Party level to go up to the next character level. How many encounters are you running in a day? 3-5 would be a standard guess.

Most Wizards can hang with 3-4 encounters w/o much of a problem. Also I would point out that the most limiting factor against the lonewolf attack at extreme range is the size of people's Battlemats.

Spot and Listen penalties stack up so quickly it is not unreasonable for a monster with a modicum of sneakiness to be able to just appear at the edge of the battlemat, especially if terrain is implied, like forest, hills, etc. Most battlemats I have seen are not more than 200' long in D&D terms, which is not that extreme of range, many characters can run the length of a Battlemat in 1-2 rounds. Likewise it would also make sense that if the party is doing a massive overland travel trek, they would be on horses...the cars of the medieval world....

 

[hong]

Past about 12th level... what overland travel trek?

 

[Abraxas]

Basically the fundimental problem with the class (and the reason I think we've never seen it reprinted despite a lot of popularity with players) is insurmountable issue that the PrC player wants to enage his/her foes at long range from cover.
Properly cheezed the class can take out a CR +2 or +3 monster with little risk (people usually mention dragon hunting as a good example). Unless the rest of the group is unusual they're not going to participate in the combat.

As the player of a Deepwood Sniper, i did not find this to be the case. In order to use some of the characters abilities to their fullest he had to be within 30 feet of the target. Which really wasn't a problem because much of the action occurred indoors instead of outdoors - and when outdoors, the character still had to succeed at spot checks with significant penalties due to terrain and distance. What I wanted my character to do was fire away at targets with a line of the party melee tanks between him and that target. And I wanted those melee types close so that when the BBEGs caught up to me help could arrive in a single move action.

As for taking out a single CR +2 or +3 creature with little risk, sure it could happen, if conditions are right, but if conditions aren't right - the damage out put drops significantly and all you do is draw attention to the fact that your PC has a relatively easy weapon to sunder in his hands.

 

[Graf]

Most "analysis" of magic vs. archery tend to ignore the prevalence of SR, resistance spells and immunities (especially at high levels). In principal a wizard is going to be doing 10d6 to everything at 300 feet. In practice they're doing half that damage (on average) after SR and then failing to get through immunities.

I wasn't aware of any abilities in the Deepwoods Sniper PrC that had a range limit of 30 feet.

but if conditions aren't right - the damage out put drops significantly and all you do is draw attention to the fact that your PC has a relatively easy weapon to sunder in his hands.

This is basically a restatement of my "fundimentally speaking" point (though written as a denial). The PrC itelf works best at long range, in cover.
(This is also why I don't think you'll ever see it in 3.5, wizards has wised up to that issue).

-If- you have a good player (who does what Abraxus does) and sticks with the DnD agreement (i.e. he goes into dungeons instead of insisting on waiting outside in the forest for the monsters to come out, engages monsters at close range to allow the rest of the party to participate, etc.) then everything should be kosher.

But if the player is a good player then you probably won't have any big issues with them in the group anyway.