Defeated by puzzle - campaign over: Here is the offending puzzle!
- Thread starter Roman
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CreativeMountainGames.com
Roman said:
Here's the problem, "that I think could be even remotely related to the puzzle" doesn't help because you simply do not know. The only thing you can do is to GET THE ANSWER so that you can be a fair arbitor in this thread. Unless you have the answer, you have no idea whatsoever if the presentation allows for someone to divine the answer themself.
Roman said:
"surely" How so? You don't know the answer so there is no "surely".
Roman said:
I said neither so don't act like I did.
While I don't doubt the DM had a solution in mind, I remain convinced that he obliterated and/or incorrectly transcribed too much of the puzzle for the players to have any reasonable way, other than lucky guessing, to solve it. I'm sure there is *some* train of thought by which it could be done, but the players, as far as I can honestly tell, were given no way of knowing that *that* train of thought, and not some other, was the one to use.
Roman, does your DM typically give you any sort of feedback at the end of adventures/sessions -- telling you what things he thought you did well, what things he thought you did poorly, things he thought you'd do that you didn't or thought you wouldn't do that you did? Did he give any hints that he would have hoped or expected that your party would've done anything differently in this adventure except for solving that final puzzle? Does he typically include many red-herrings, false clues, and other distractions and time/resource-wasters in his dungeons? If in fact this campaign-ending puzzle was actually a red herring of some sort do you think he would've let on in some way? Perhaps you weren't actually supposed to 'solve' this puzzle at all and were actually supposed to do something completely different? That would be a very devious (I daresay downright Gygaxian) trick -- confront the players with an unsolvable (except by luck) puzzle, and watch them sweat over it, waste all kinds of time and resources trying to solve it, and eventually die of frustration (literally), when in fact they were never expected to actually solve it, and should've done something else entirely (likely something very simple that in hindsight/retrospect would be completely obvious)...
Several people asked some questions about the campaign. What happened to the characters when the campaign ended? Was it our choice to go into the dark temple or did the DM impose this on us and was there a warning that the temple is dangerous, etc.? Were we prepared to go into the evil temple and did we research it before venturing in? Why were we unable to simply leave? I will attempt to answer these questions here:
The question of what happened to the characters was left somewhat open, but death from starvation or dehydration was the leading theory discussed. Clerics can, of course, create food and water, but when they run out of spell points that they cannot regain death would eventually come. It would take a while though.
It was fully our choice to go into the evil temple and the DM did not force us to go in at all. We were amply warned that the dark temple is very deadly before we ventured in. As I have already mentioned in the previous thread we knew of the restrictions on clerical magic and resting in the evil temple and as I have also mentioned we have found ways to minimize them. We researched the dark temple to a very reasonable degree before delving inside. This research was done through several means, including general research, various divination spells, visiting the elves who helped create it (when we learned they were involved in the creation of the temple), paying a 'visit' to the three 'lesser' evil temples of each of the three dark gods (the main evil temple was their combined temple), as well as acquiring odd bits and pieces of information while on other adventures. Our preparations were also pretty extensive. Before going into the dark temple, we have conducted several supporting adventures in which we acquired (some of it as reward from the elves for doing certain things for them and some in other supporting adventures): two artifacts that would allow two clerics to cast spells in the temple (still no resting, no turning undead, etc. but at least they could cast some [but not all] spells - without the artifacts they could not cast any spells at all), a dust of resting that would allow the party to rest in the temple one single time (though clerics would still not regain full spell points in this rest - they would get about 20% of their spell points back), 5 potions of heal/ressurect all (these would even bring people from the dead with no level loss), 5 potions of replenishing spell points (these would work even inside the temple for either clerics or wizards) and 5 potions that could be used to destroy the otherwise indestructible summoning portals in the evil temple that constantly summon in more monsters.
As to why we cannot return to the surface, it is a matter of resources versus what would await us on the way back. Getting here, we have expended (and that was being very thrifty!):
1) All 5 potions of portal destruction (there are at least 2 summoning portals in every room)
2) 4 out of 5 potions of heal/ressurect all
3) The dust of resting
4) 3 out of 5 potions of spell point restore
Apart from the above resources acquired specifically for the temple, we have also expended most of our other magical resources (wands, potions, etc.).
Our party has the following composition:
1) Human Cleric of the Justice Bringer 9/Fighter 4 (has one of the artifact enabling casting of some spells) - party leader
2) Dwarf Cleric of the Traveller 13 (has one of the artifacts enabling casting of some spells) - my character
3) Human Cleric of the Traveller 6/Rogue 7 (no artifact [we had one for him, but lost it - long story] and therefore no spells)
4) Human Fighter 4/Wizard 8
5) Human Wizard 12
6) Human Barbarian 12
7) Human Barbarian 13 - permanently dead
8) Human Rogue 11 - permanently dead
Of the 6 characters alive every single one of them is stat drained and at low or relatively low hit points. Wizards are low on spell points. My character is at approximately half spell points (that's because as the main cleric of the party he has been the recipient of most of the potions of spell point restore) and the other cleric that can cast is almost out of spell points. The stat drains (all of which are permanent) range from mild (my character is the least affected with only 1 point of intelligence drained) to severe (the worst of characters have multiple stats drained by large amounts - such as 10. The human pure wizard has every single stat drained - some by large amounts. The stat drains are restorable and the damage is healable, but the spell point costs (especially since lesser restoration cannot do it and the most cost-effective healing spells [1st level] cannot be cast in the temple) are considerable given the limited resources.
If our reasearch on the dark temple is correct (and so far it has been, so there is little reason to doubt it), the temple consists of 13 linearly linked rooms and the lich resides in the final 13th room. So far, this pattern has held and the rooms were linearly linked. We are currently in room 10. Going forward (if the puzzle was solved) would have left us with only 3 rooms to go through. The party might die in the process (or suffer losses), but it would be feasible. Going back through 9 rooms, where all the monsters and dangers have replenished to their full vile power (and they have replenished - that's what the summoning portals are there for and we could only destroy 5, as we only had 5 potions - 3 of the 5 are in this room, as we had to spend a lot of time here to solve the puzzle - the other rooms we just moved though as fast as possible - only destroying 2 other portals in the room where we used the resting dust) would be certain death. Also the rooms are linked with long corridors filled with mists. The mists permanently and on a large scale drain stats of those who venture through them. In particular, just touching each mist requires 2-4 saves: One failed will save drains int or wis and forces you to make another will save which than results in the other stat being drained if it is failed. One failed fort save drains con or str and forces you to make another fort save or have the other stat drained too. Each stat drain is 1d10 (or so I think judging from the pattern of the drains) There are 9 of those corridors on the way back, while there should be only 3 on the way forwards. Plus of course, there are the nasty guardians at the entrance... Plus some of the monsters in the rooms on the way here that we barely escaped are now ready for us... Going back is not at all feasible.
Everyone, including the DM, agreed that a way back was basically impossible. As you can see, though, it was our decision to come here, so please stop the hate against my DM.
The question of what happened to the characters was left somewhat open, but death from starvation or dehydration was the leading theory discussed. Clerics can, of course, create food and water, but when they run out of spell points that they cannot regain death would eventually come. It would take a while though.
It was fully our choice to go into the evil temple and the DM did not force us to go in at all. We were amply warned that the dark temple is very deadly before we ventured in. As I have already mentioned in the previous thread we knew of the restrictions on clerical magic and resting in the evil temple and as I have also mentioned we have found ways to minimize them. We researched the dark temple to a very reasonable degree before delving inside. This research was done through several means, including general research, various divination spells, visiting the elves who helped create it (when we learned they were involved in the creation of the temple), paying a 'visit' to the three 'lesser' evil temples of each of the three dark gods (the main evil temple was their combined temple), as well as acquiring odd bits and pieces of information while on other adventures. Our preparations were also pretty extensive. Before going into the dark temple, we have conducted several supporting adventures in which we acquired (some of it as reward from the elves for doing certain things for them and some in other supporting adventures): two artifacts that would allow two clerics to cast spells in the temple (still no resting, no turning undead, etc. but at least they could cast some [but not all] spells - without the artifacts they could not cast any spells at all), a dust of resting that would allow the party to rest in the temple one single time (though clerics would still not regain full spell points in this rest - they would get about 20% of their spell points back), 5 potions of heal/ressurect all (these would even bring people from the dead with no level loss), 5 potions of replenishing spell points (these would work even inside the temple for either clerics or wizards) and 5 potions that could be used to destroy the otherwise indestructible summoning portals in the evil temple that constantly summon in more monsters.
As to why we cannot return to the surface, it is a matter of resources versus what would await us on the way back. Getting here, we have expended (and that was being very thrifty!):
1) All 5 potions of portal destruction (there are at least 2 summoning portals in every room)
2) 4 out of 5 potions of heal/ressurect all
3) The dust of resting
4) 3 out of 5 potions of spell point restore
Apart from the above resources acquired specifically for the temple, we have also expended most of our other magical resources (wands, potions, etc.).
Our party has the following composition:
1) Human Cleric of the Justice Bringer 9/Fighter 4 (has one of the artifact enabling casting of some spells) - party leader
2) Dwarf Cleric of the Traveller 13 (has one of the artifacts enabling casting of some spells) - my character
3) Human Cleric of the Traveller 6/Rogue 7 (no artifact [we had one for him, but lost it - long story] and therefore no spells)
4) Human Fighter 4/Wizard 8
5) Human Wizard 12
6) Human Barbarian 12
7) Human Barbarian 13 - permanently dead
8) Human Rogue 11 - permanently dead
Of the 6 characters alive every single one of them is stat drained and at low or relatively low hit points. Wizards are low on spell points. My character is at approximately half spell points (that's because as the main cleric of the party he has been the recipient of most of the potions of spell point restore) and the other cleric that can cast is almost out of spell points. The stat drains (all of which are permanent) range from mild (my character is the least affected with only 1 point of intelligence drained) to severe (the worst of characters have multiple stats drained by large amounts - such as 10. The human pure wizard has every single stat drained - some by large amounts. The stat drains are restorable and the damage is healable, but the spell point costs (especially since lesser restoration cannot do it and the most cost-effective healing spells [1st level] cannot be cast in the temple) are considerable given the limited resources.
If our reasearch on the dark temple is correct (and so far it has been, so there is little reason to doubt it), the temple consists of 13 linearly linked rooms and the lich resides in the final 13th room. So far, this pattern has held and the rooms were linearly linked. We are currently in room 10. Going forward (if the puzzle was solved) would have left us with only 3 rooms to go through. The party might die in the process (or suffer losses), but it would be feasible. Going back through 9 rooms, where all the monsters and dangers have replenished to their full vile power (and they have replenished - that's what the summoning portals are there for and we could only destroy 5, as we only had 5 potions - 3 of the 5 are in this room, as we had to spend a lot of time here to solve the puzzle - the other rooms we just moved though as fast as possible - only destroying 2 other portals in the room where we used the resting dust) would be certain death. Also the rooms are linked with long corridors filled with mists. The mists permanently and on a large scale drain stats of those who venture through them. In particular, just touching each mist requires 2-4 saves: One failed will save drains int or wis and forces you to make another will save which than results in the other stat being drained if it is failed. One failed fort save drains con or str and forces you to make another fort save or have the other stat drained too. Each stat drain is 1d10 (or so I think judging from the pattern of the drains) There are 9 of those corridors on the way back, while there should be only 3 on the way forwards. Plus of course, there are the nasty guardians at the entrance... Plus some of the monsters in the rooms on the way here that we barely escaped are now ready for us... Going back is not at all feasible.
Everyone, including the DM, agreed that a way back was basically impossible. As you can see, though, it was our decision to come here, so please stop the hate against my DM.
DonTadow
First Post
I think it comes down to why your players play the game. I play a great RPG at gencon called Nascrag and the game is primarily puzzles. There is a saying in NASCRAG, if you are in combat then you did something wrong." I do my puzzles they way they do theirs as well as the wya the people in True Dungeons (another gencon only thing) . I let them take a shot at the puzzle, and as time is winding down I begin to provide hints. It is just, in my game, the hints are based on knowledge or intelligence rolls. It just seems wierd to me that as a dm i tell my players that they can't metagame or use player knowledge for their characters, then when a puzzle comes up, I completely disregaurd their character and put the focus soley on the intelligence of the player. I have some players who love puzzles and some whom see them as huge obstacles. I try to cater to both by giving enough time for reasoning and then using the characters' previous knowledge to drop clues. I think its our job as dms when dealing with puzzles is first (determine how the player's in your game feel about puzzles) and attempt to blend blend the reasoning of the player without disregaruding the character created.A'koss said:Then I'm even more certain now that it is a 5x5 grid, border reflection puzzle with a couple of errors in the original design. If not, and it's some "Game of life" puzzle or something equally esoteric I would be mightily inclined to lynch the DM.![:]](http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/devious.png "Devious :]")
I don't agree with this entirely. I think it is more than fair, hell - even a desirable thing, to challenge the player directly in the game. Pure knowledge (facts) can best be handled by Intelligence and Knowledge skills but reasoning ability should be entirely in the player's hands. Otherwise the metagame fallout could be ugly - "I use my intelligence to find a way out of X predicament."
A'koss.
DonTadow
First Post
Roman said:
I think why everyone is ragging on the dm so much is because it seems, from your original post, that the campaign was ended and you were defeated by a puzzle. I"m curious as to if this was a long term campaign or just a one or two night thing. Most of the DMs I know plan their campaigns a minimum of 3 months up to a year and they last just as long or longer. This is not about the pcs "choices" . The PCs should always have the choice to do what. I'm reading your post and it sounds battered wife syndrome. "YEs my dm killed me unfarely ::sniff sniff:: but it was because we made him do it. " This is not you guys fault. I'll leave a help line number at the end of my message.
It just sounds awful that if your DM planned a rich engaging long term campaign and he'd be willing to end it because the pcs couldn't figure out a puzzle. Its anti-climatic. It's unfair to you as a player who wasted the time to build characters and backgrounds and stories. The dm is still in control and things can be fudged so that you guys could at least face death by the LIch instead of by a puzzle. That's not to say I wouldn't kill a pc if the puzzle hid a treasure that was worth it and they failed, but a whole party... a whole campaign. I think the DM failed at making the campaign fun in the end. The Klingon in me says that you guys died very dishonorably. I think my players would kill me if I say you were defeated by the dire Rubik's Cube" . Sure it would solidify the evilness that they already believe I am, but it wouldn't be fare.
T. Foster said:
No, in my experience in this campaign, puzzles are basically impossible to surpass by means other than solving the puzzle and are not red herrings. However, it is usually possible to simply go away/back and do something else - this particular dungeon is a special case though as it is linear (as our research tells us and as has held true thus far - that did not stop us thoroughly searching the room but we found nothing).
3catcircus
Adventurer
T. Foster said:
Or, as I like to call it, the "Swim, F*&^er" method...
I absolutely hate the fact that the majority of the guys I play with always whine and complain when our DM throws a puzzle our way. Or - God(s) forbid - when I DM'ed a campaign (using the I3-5 Supermodule) and actually gave them the coded parchments (along with the primer) and expected them to figure it out rather than ask for an Int check... they whined like a bunch of little girls - that and they also whined about the fact that their brainiac idea of wearing metal armor in a desert would - GASP - result in them suffering for it instead of being smart like the natives and either foregoing armor, or using armors specifically designed for desert use.
I wish that *every* session was full of puzzles, pain-in-the-*** shopkeepers who refuse to budge a single copper on their selling price, save-or-die traps, and other things that I want to be able to risk doing in a game that I'm smart enough not to do in real life.
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