Defeated by puzzle - campaign over: Here is the offending puzzle!

[monboesen]

YMMV, of course. "Sticking" with the decision is really important in group activities, even if it results in not having fun

But that is part of my point. The dm is suposed to have fun too. As said I would not as a dm balance an entire campaign on a puzzle.

But you can be sure I would not keep giving out hints and clues untill a puzzle is solved if I put one in the game. And there won't suddenly and mysteriously pop up some kind of solution to the problem or a previously non-existing way to bypass it. Because that would make the game very unfun for me.

Obviously I would give out something to the players with intelligent characters, if they still can't solve it. Well tough luck. Just as it is tough luck when a Hill Giant crits you for 63 points of damage and you die.

Thats how I dm and my players prefer it that way. They know that you do your best, but sometimes you still fail. It's not a Hollywood movie with a guaranteed happy ending.

IMO the posters who stated that they party should have turned back after the first or second room had it right. Without a way to disable the fog and the portals they should have retreated and found a way to do that before proceeding. They brought the situation on their own heads. With a way out we wouldn't have had any discussion at all.

 

[Numion]

But that is part of my point. The dm is suposed to have fun too. As said I would not as a dm balance an entire campaign on a puzzle.

But you can be sure I would not keep giving out hints and clues untill a puzzle is solved if I put one in the game. And there won't suddenly and mysteriously pop up some kind of solution to the problem or a previously non-existing way to bypass it.

So, if the DM notices he's made a rotten decision and the whole campaign is going to waste, and entire night of D&D is going to waste, he should just "stick with it" and expect his players to do the same? Maybe 15 years a go when we could game every night if we wanted to and generally did nothing anyways .. but now? Sadly D&D time is on short supply with my group living busy lives, so I dont think all DM mistakes should be uncorrectable.

Obviously I would give out something to the players with intelligent characters, if they still can't solve it. Well tough luck. Just as it is tough luck when a Hill Giant crits you for 63 points of damage and you die.

Thats how I dm and my players prefer it that way. They know that you do your best, but sometimes you still fail. It's not a Hollywood movie with a guaranteed happy ending.

I wouldn't expect mercy, or give it, myself. Scores of characters have met their demise during my reign as a D&D 3e dungeon master. Zero adventure sessions were spent doing nothing but staring at a puzzle printed out on excel sheet.

You see the difference?

Dying from a nasty crit is D&D. Poring over an excel sheet puzzle for an entire night is not. It might be fun in someone's books (judging by this threads popularity), but not in mine.

IMO the posters who stated that they party should have turned back after the first or second room had it right. Without a way to disable the fog and the portals they should have retreated and found a way to do that before proceeding. They brought the situation on their own heads. With a way out we wouldn't have had any discussion at all.

Well, every situation the PCs end in is brought on their own heads if you think about it. Stay home, farm the fields, never go adventuring. Thats the safe solution.

 

[rushlight]

Several people have commented that they feel it's important for the world to have some "realism". I totally agree - and it's something I hold dear to my own homebrew.

The problem I have is not that the puzzle stumped the players. That's on the borders of acceptable.[1] The fact is that the campaign is OVER. Never more shall a PC venture into the Dungeon of Unsolvable Puzzles of the Vulcan Lich King. At this point, all cries for realism and verisimilitude are irrelevant. It no longer matters if the players know the answer - they aren't going back to that dungeon.

The problem is that the DM intends to use a puzzle he knows his players cannot solve AGAIN. That's just bad form, and mean. Worse, even if the players were playing a different game and that puzzle popped up, that WOULD break the "realism" - as the players know that the DM just wants to prevent their actions. He might as well say, "You can't go into the next room, because I said so." If the players try, his response is equal to: "We'll you all die. Game over."

Sure there should be places in the world where PCs aren't meant to go. I agree that PCs shouldn't be prevented from making mistakes - even ones that result in TPKs. But that's not the problem here. The problem is it seems the DM just wants to keep his power to stymie players. That's not cool.

[1] - I disagree with bringing in totally out-of-game circumstances into the game. It's the characters who are in the room - not the players. While the characters are embodied by the players, the characters have skills and abilities beyond what the players possess. For a player, the puzzle may be hard. For someone with an INT that rivals a god, then it's not so hard. I'd have allowed for checks for clues. Of course, failure of the checks still results in failure.

 

[Coredump]

As said I would not as a dm balance an entire campaign on a puzzle.

But you can be sure I would not keep giving out hints and clues untill a puzzle is solved if I put one in the game. And there won't suddenly and mysteriously pop up some kind of solution to the problem or a previously non-existing way to bypass it.

But that is the point. If there were a 'secret' way into the temple, but they had to get passed this puzzle. Fine if they can't do it. They turn around and do it the hard way. People aren't mad because it is an impossible puzzle. They are mad because it is an impossible puzzle, with no way out, and caused the end of the campaign. And now he wants to use it again?

Obviously I would give out something to the players with intelligent characters,

But he didn't do that either.

Just as it is tough luck when a Hill Giant crits you for 63 points of damage and you die.

But it is not just 'tough luck' when that room in the 'kobold dungeon' just happens to hold two red dragons. Yes, if they had lots of warning, etc. But the DM has never come back with "I told you the 18th level party never came back" etc. nor "I gave you all those hints as you went through the other rooms" etc.
Heck, they *did* lots of research, why wouldn't they discover something like this out? He placed an unbeatable object in their path, with no way around, no way back, and no warning that it existed.
No, you would not do that.

IMO the posters who stated that they party should have turned back after the first or second room had it right. Without a way to disable the fog and the portals they should have retreated and found a way to do that before proceeding. They brought the situation on their own heads. With a way out we wouldn't have had any discussion at all.

I disagree. Hard monsters and poisenous gas makes them responsible for dieing to hard monsters and poisenous gas. And I agree that they should have gone back at higher level.
So if Roman had come and said "We all died in room 13 from all the monsters and gas" we would have said "dumb dungeoun, but you deserved it" But the puzzle was still poorly designed and placed.

 

[Blood Jester]

Folks, stop waiting for an answer or a clue.

If he refuses to answer the puzzle because he 'might want to use it again' and that would give it away, why would he actually give a useable clue?

Whether you guys are given the answer, or figure it out with a good clueand post it here, both would have the same result, puzzle answer is known and puzzle is nullified for future use.

Deal with the fact that this guy is a poor DM, and possibly a dishonest...wait I'll play nice...disingenuous person, and that this puzzle is either completely bogus, or at the least will never have enough information given out to be solved.

For that matter this could easily be the greastest Troll since Bugaboo in his heyday.

Can anyone prove that Roman ran into this in a game, or that he is not the Dm in question, or that this is even a real puzzle?

Let the thread die, even if this is all on the up and up (which I strongly doubt), you will not be given satisfaction.

 

[AdmundfortGeographer]

This DM (I've been a DM too...) wants to reuse this puzzle that could not be solved by thousands of intelligent gamers? If he does reuse it it will be because he wants to end another campaign.

But I reiterate my two prior ideas. There is no solution, the DM just wanted to stop the campaign (for whatever reason he had and didn't want to divulge for fear of embarrassment), or the solution is to leave it as is and to leave the blanks as blanks.

*shrug*

I believe we are still waiting for one of those people who voted this was an easy puzzle to show up and prove themselves.

 

[billd91]

But that is the point. If there were a 'secret' way into the temple, but they had to get passed this puzzle. Fine if they can't do it. They turn around and do it the hard way. People aren't mad because it is an impossible puzzle. They are mad because it is an impossible puzzle, with no way out, and caused the end of the campaign. And now he wants to use it again?

That's the kicker for me. The DM has a campaign killer, used it once and stuck to his guns about killing the campaign when the players couldn't solve it, and now is holding onto it to use it again. He should be using the fact that it killed one campaign to learn something and he clearly is not.

 

[neg]

For that matter this could easily be the greastest Troll since Bugaboo in his heyday.

Can anyone prove that Roman ran into this in a game, or that he is not the Dm in question, or that this is even a real puzzle?

Heh, didn't even think of that....

If that is the case, consider my hat tipped to you....you got me and a whole lot of other people....

-neg

 

[punkorange]

blood jester is the dm! Just kidding.

This entire thread being a troll is quite an interesting idea though. Who knows. I'll just continue to check this thread daily. I'm quite interested in this puzzle, I might even use it. heh, wait, no I'll never use this. As mentioned before, If I want to end a campaign I'll do it gracefully with a bailor.

 

[schporto]

OK this is a very very dumb solution, but it holds. Count all the circles in each column. Then total those totals. Count all the circles in each row, then total those totals. The two totals must match (which they always will). Repeat for triangles and arrows. Yes I know this just means any combination would work.
Alternitively could it be that the number of arrows, circles and triangles are all the same(75 of each)? Again many possible answers, but at least its something.
Yes these are silly trivial answers. But maybe we're trying to confuse ourselves trying to find ONE answer when there may be many.
-cpd