Defeated by puzzle - campaign over

[TheAuldGrump]

What the hell? that doesn't even work. If you say "you will kill me with a sword, then that's a lie, and he can kill you with a spell!" the same goes for "you are lying."

at least he let you have more than one try.

Reading these stories, It's pretty evident that the real problem isn't specifically with the idea of riddles, but with their application. So what are some good ground rules for running riddle or puzze encounters? Hearing this story, we've got an easy number one and two:

1) Make sure that your solution is correct!
2) Allow alternate correct solutions that you didn't think of.

Insert appropriate humor here.

The Auld Grump

 

[Ds Da Man]

Dude, pummel that DM most heiniously for allowing a campaign to stop or slow way down because of a stupid riddle. What would make him want all the players to say screw it, lets play somethin else. That a bad DM!

 

[Particle_Man]

Funny. I had left this very campaign earlier (partly due to different styles, but partly because I wanted to kill stuff, not fool around with puzzles like this). I sometimes wondered if I had done the right thing in leaving the campaign. This thread has solved that particular question for me.

Anyhow, I for one hope you guys fail to solve the puzzle, because someone else has offered to DM and I really like playing in his campaigns. (He's a rat-bastard DM, but one that I LOVE to play under. I like the roleplaying (for instance, I rarely get frustrated in encounters with the City Guardsmen (or whatever)), I enjoy the combats, and I do not have to deal with Mensa puzzles. Conan never had to deal with Mensa puzzles, so I find myself in good company there).

 

[Inconsequenti-AL]

I'm with quite a few others here, I generally despise rpg puzzles. They bore me stupid and break up the flow of the game. I can tolerate them, as long as they don't happen too often and as long as someone else wants to solve them.


I like Morrus answer to plot required riddles. Players try to solve them. If they feel they can't, then the characters automatically work out the answer. Players don't get to find out the solution and no xp is awarded for the puzzle.

I'd prefer this to rolling int or similar. Frankly if it's a vital puzzle and no-one makes their int roll, then you're all still in the same unable to solve it quandry?


Had a great secondary answer to a puzzle recently. Playing Ars Magica - trying to break into some lond dead wizards home. We found two ways through. First, answer a long series of complicated riddles. Second, get drunk on centaur wine, run straight through all the puzzles... but you have to complete 'the dungeon' drunk. Option 2 every time.

 

[Saeviomagy]

I have a question for the original poster:

Was leaving the dungeon just totally out of the question or something? You already know the answers to the puzzles, so they're not a challenge to get past again. Simply leave, divine the answer to this one (or contact other plane, or commune) and then go back in.

 

[Psychic Warrior]

If the PLAYERS aren't able to handle challenges to THEIR SKILL, then they do need to find another game more suitable. May I suggest Candyland or Shoots & Ladders?

So did you come up with the solution to the puzzle presented by the original poster?

And please stop typing in capital letters - there is no need to shout.

 

[Mercule]

I have become convinced that I need to put a puzzle into my game, soon. This will be NO ORDINARY PUZZLE. Or, no. It will be certain to be so difficult as to stump both the players and the characters. And, with every incorrect answer, something nasty and potentially deadly will occur. Because no matter what the PCs move, touch, or say, they will invoke the traps.

Indeed, the only correct response to the puzzle shall be to ignore it and continue down the passage.

 

[yennico]

I have become convinced that I need to put a puzzle into my game, soon. This will be NO ORDINARY PUZZLE. Or, no. It will be certain to be so difficult as to stump both the players and the characters. And, with every incorrect answer, something nasty and potentially deadly will occur. Because no matter what the PCs move, touch, or say, they will invoke the traps.

Indeed, the only correct response to the puzzle shall be to ignore it and continue down the passage.

*lol*

 

[Zappo]

I can see where you're coming from, but most riddles and puzzles (or at least most good ones) aren't set up by the BBEG at all.

You shouldn't need to solve some wonky astrolgy puzzle to get into the BBEG's sanctum sanctorum. But if you're just proving your worth to the spirit guardians in order to retrieve the sacred sword, does it matter whether the challenge is a contrived puzzle or a contrived duel? And is their any harm in entering a riddle contest with the sphinx or dragon rather than getting ripped in half or burnt to a crisp?

And riddles can work fairly well for the front door, even if they aren't a good idea for guarding the jewel safe. The only real point of the Moria door riddle, after all, what to make sure that the entrant could read and speak elvish.

Ultimately, these are all security problems. There is some resource which must only be given to someone who satisfies certain requirements. Puzzle-solving doesn't prove any useful requirement that can't be proven in a much easier and more reliable way.

If I'm to prove to the spirit guardians that I am good and wise enough to wield the sacred sword, it doesn't matter whether the challenge is a contrived puzzle or a contrived duel. It doesn't make sense either way, because neither challenge demonstrates goodness or wisdom. I could be Hannibal Lecter for what the spirit guardians know. If these spirit guardians want to only give the sword to someone who has a 135 IQ, now that could work, but really, what kind of spirit guardians are these?

Now, if I'm playing a campaign high on metaphors or an explicitly fairy-tale style campaign, I could live with that, but those kind of games have little appeal on me. I like a balance between narration and verosimilitude, which includes at least major plot points to make sense.

As for the Moria door - that's a prime example of why puzzles don't make sense. Why would anyone make a door which only opens if you know a specific language? And why only at night, anyway? I mean, it's not like an orc couldn't capture someone who speaks elvish and torture him until he opens the door.

 

[Zjelani]

Stuck DMs

What I don't understand, but have seen happen to more than one good DM, is the idea that the campaign gets "stuck" where the logic of the campaign plays out so that the DM can't do anything different. Like in this case, the PCs must solve a riddle or else they are stuck there forever. It's like the DM paints themselves into a corner and then just shurgs because the party is stuck.

I just totally can't comprehend this. The DM controls everything!! It's impossible to "get stuck". Rather than a disappointed shrug and starting a new campaign, maybe after a couple days of not being able to solve the puzzle, another party of adventurers comes by that can help, or evil minions arrive to "clean house", a player has a dream, something! A DM can get away with a whole heck of a lot since they are the ones who create the logic of the campaign.

It seems to me that many otherwise good DMs forget this and wind up stuck. Personally, rather than having everyone disappointed and give up (DM included), just toss in a little helping of deus ex machina and get on with it. But that's just me.