Defeating my powergamer Glave master

[Old Gumphrey]

Don't need to. I'm a Fighter, remember? Anyone I attack with any ability, including Dragon Breath, will make on a hit or miss. So whoever doesn't die is already marked.

Showoff...

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Showoff...

Yeah, wait until I hit Epic after taking the Inner Dragon PP. Up to 3 Breath Weapon attacks per encounter (one as a free action when I'm first bloodied, and another if I spend an action point while bloodied), each of which deals ongoing damage and gives me a damage bonus on my next attack, which will likely be some sort of burst power, and then the Immediate Reaction Dragon Blast that allows me to make an Immediate Reaction attack if I get hit that will possibly blind anyone in a Close Blast 3.

Then I'll be showing off.

Oh, and they'll all be marked too. Did I mention that I love Fighters? Especially Dragonborn Fighters?

 

[Goumindong]

Not doing it on "your" turn is not the same as "not considered a turn for purposes of other effects" or "happens along with someone else's turn as part of their turn, and is not considered it's own turn for purposes of other effects". It's just telling you it cannot happen on your initiative count.

Each creature gets a turn, if it doesn't happen on the creatures turn and doesn't happen on your turn then it can't actually happen on any turn and so you couldn't OA against any readied action no matter what turn it was because you only get OA's during creatures turns[in fact, one per creatures turn].

Your claim would then break it entirely the other direction, not only would readied actions ignore OA's from single enemies they would ignore OA's from all enemies.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Each creature gets a turn, if it doesn't happen on the creatures turn and doesn't happen on your turn then it can't actually happen on any turn and so you couldn't OA against any readied action no matter what turn it was because you only get OA's during creatures turns[in fact, one per creatures turn].

Your claim would then break it entirely the other direction, not only would readied actions ignore OA's from single enemies they would ignore OA's from all enemies.

Everything happens in someone's turn. If you take a normal action then it is in your turn. If it is an immediate action or an opportunity action, then it is in the turn of whoever triggered the action. That is surely entirely clear.

Don't try to stretch and distort the combat action rules to fit some idea you have, just read them plain and simple as they are. If you don't like the way they work, then houserule them. Nobody is going to tell you that you shouldn't, its your game.

Of course it is possible WotC will decide to change the official rules, but until they do it is quite clear what they are. I seriously doubt they will change the action structure at all, but who really knows?

 

[Goumindong]

Everything happens in someone's turn. If you take a normal action then it is in your turn. If it is an immediate action or an opportunity action, then it is in the turn of whoever triggered the action. That is surely entirely clear.

That is exactly what I am arguing. Mistwell is arguing that OA's are "their own turn". I was simply explaining to him what happens by the rules if OA's and Immediate actions become "their own turn", which is that by not being a creatures turn no one could make an OA against those actions anyway since you don't get OA's on the turns of immediate actions or Opportunity actions you get OA's once per creatures turn.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

That is exactly what I am arguing. Mistwell is arguing that OA's are "their own turn". I was simply explaining to him what happens by the rules if OA's and Immediate actions become "their own turn", which is that by not being a creatures turn no one could make an OA against those actions anyway since you don't get OA's on the turns of immediate actions or Opportunity actions you get OA's once per creatures turn.

Ah. Right. The reason of course why OAs are limited as they are and also why you get only one immediate action is to prevent action loops and such silliness. That would be my real objection to considering those types of things to be some sort of "turn" in their own right. If a readied action (immediate) happens in its own sort of "mini-turn" that would almost work (assuming it is a 'turn' of the acting creature), but it just isn't written that way. It would also beg questions like "is there an EOT sequence to this mini-turn?" and "when does an effect end which is created during this mini-turn?". Gets ugly fast.

The way it is written is actually fairly clean once everyone understands it, and all the rules become pretty clear. Obviously it does lead to things like the rushing tactic that partly sidestep OAs. I suspect that was considered either the lesser of two evils, and/or just a clever tactic that is left on the table for players to use.

 

[Mistwell]

1. Please stop saying a rule is "clear" when others in the thread disagree with your interpretation of that rule. If there is a dispute between relatively reasonable people regarding what a rule means, then it is not clear. Continually stating a rule is "clear" in light of such a dispute isn't helpful. It does not advance the debate in any way, and implies something about the other person that is at best aggressive.

2. My argument is that a readied action is it's own turn for purposes of other effects, because it still meets all definitions of a turn, and moves your initiative. Readied actions are not supposed to be a loophole in the "every non-free action you take is part of your turn" principal built into the rules. Readying an action moves when you take your turn, but your actions are not actually someone else's turn. Your actions are still your turn, for purposes of other effects that depend on turns.

 

[Goumindong]

1.
2.

1. Just because you disagree, does not make your position reasonable. Your position is unreasonable. E.G. See 2.

2. Your argument is that a readied action is its own turn but not its own turn?

O.K.

1. Where does it say that a readied action is its own turn? Or "its own turn for the purposes of other effects"

2. Where is the "every non-free action you make is part of your turn" rule?

Look. Readied actions are explicitly a standard action that grants you an immediate reaction on the trigger you choose. When you use this reaction it resets your initiative. Read it just like a power


"Std Action
Choose any action and any trigger. Until the start of your next turn you gain an immediate reaction with the trigger you chose. This reaction performs the action that you choose. After you use this immediate reaction your initiative is reset to immediately before the action that triggered it."

You don't do anything else, you don't use any rules but the immediate action rules. You don't make up rules with no text to support them just because you want it to work that way. It doesn't meet any definitions of a turn, it does not grant the enemy extra actions and it does produce significant strain on the entity that uses the action.

lets go over some example situations.

Round 1:
Turn 1: Enemy hits w/ immobilize till end of next turn power
Turn 2: player readies action on "enemy attacks"

Round 2:
Turn 1: Enemy attacks w/ dmg power
REACTION: Player's readied action goes off enemy is unable to react to this with OA's, or immediate actions
Turn 1 ends: Player no longer immobilized

Round 3:
Turn 1: Player attacks
Turn 2: Enemy Attacks

Totals:
Enemy Attacks: 3
Player attacks: 2

Players actions outside of the immobilize: 1

Without a readied action its 3 attacks for the player and 2 rounds not immobilized. The player does not lose as much economy of action when you consider on a hit point basis, but they still lose the actions outside of the immobilize.

Not just that though, they also lose the ability to use any other immediate actions since they can only use one immediate action per round.

Alright well, what happens if we use your system.

Round 1:
Enemy Provokes OA:
-Player OA's its his turn for the purposes, this OA provokes
--Not being the enemies turn for the purposes of other effects, the enemy OA's right back, but he provokes!
---and the player OA's him back

Wait a second this is getting silly. If an OA or immediate reaction makes it effectively your turn then there is no reason to have a rule that you cannot make OA's/immediate actions on your turn. OA's/Immediate actions only work on triggers which can only be produced on others turns(for the most part) . If OA's or immediate reactions make it effectively your turn then the entire design goal of not having cylcing OA's/immediate actions is circumvented!

 

[Mistwell]

1. Just because you disagree, does not make your position reasonable. Your position is unreasonable. E.G. See 2.

I stopped reading there. If you want to discuss it with me, you're going to have to at least make a vague attempt at being polite. And I say that given your other aggressive comments in this thread.

 

[Goumindong]

I stopped reading there. If you want to discuss it with me, you're going to have to at least make a vague attempt at being polite. And I say that given your other aggressive comments in this thread.

Look, you made a statement "my position is reasonable" the only way i can disagree with that is by saying that your position is unreasonable. So if i disagree that is the only thing i can say. Don't feign indignation about someone saying you're wrong, this is a discussion forum, explain why you're right. I did, you can too. Well you could, but you're pretty definitively wrong and when you're definitively wrong you need to admit it and just move on. [E.G. the other day i claimed that you got a -5 penalty attacking an adjacent enemy that was in a stinking cloud, but alas, it was not true, it is only a -2 because the full concealment penalty is only -2 when you're adjacent]

Is your position reasonable? Is the fact that people are taking your position as unreasonable unreasonable as you implicitly claimed it was? Something that is "at best aggressive".

I really want to know where these principles come from. I want to know where the "every non-free action you take is part of your turn" action principle is. I really want to know where and when that is applied to immediate actions.

I want to know where this comes from "Your actions are still your turn, for purposes of other effects that depend on turns"

I want to know how immediate actions and OA's qualify the definition of "On your turn you take actions: a standard action, a move action, a minor action and any number of free actions, in any order you wish" (PHB 266) as you say "because it still meets all definitions of a turn"

I want to know how immediate actions qualify for that or ignore the other part that says "In the initiative order, every combatant takes a turn, which includes various actions. (Combatants can also take certain actions on one anothers turn)"(PHB 266-267)

I want to know how immediate actions qualify as your turn when "your turn" has no immediate actions listed as able to be executed and immediate and opportunity actions are explicitly prohibited on your turn(PHB 268).

I want to know how "Other combatants can take free actions on your turn and you might take actions that trigger immediate actions and opportunity actions from other combatants" (PHB 269) doesn't have anything to say about this since it explicitly then lists immediate and opportunity actions from other players as happening on your turn.

I want to know why "Actions on Other Turns" where it explicitly spells out, for the 5th or so time that your opportunity and immediate actions happen on other turns (PHB 269) does not make your position unreasonable.

The problem is that it does make your position unreasonable, me claiming that it is unreasonable is not me being mean, its me stating a claim then supporting it.