Defenses and To Hits for Your Party ~ Averages

[Prestidigitalis]

And otherwise follow the guidance (at Heroic you need to only multiclass sanely). I can set up a solid first level character in a class I don't know in five minutes including booting the character builder.

If by "follow the guidance" you mean "do what the CB suggests", you are mostly right. But the current version of the CB makes some really dumba** suggestions, like suggesting you take a feat that gives a +1 feat bonus that won't stack with a feat you already have.

 

[FreeTheSlaves]

As already touched on by several posters, having the average numbers for to-hit probability based on such a high score really accentuates things as levels accumulate and that prime stat get bumped each time.

Already at 1st level, an 18 str/13 dex Cavalier gets a marked drop in skill when using a longbow they're proficient in. By keying things so highly other attack options eventually drop by the wayside as only the primary attack is keeping up. Just imagine a bullrush at paragon level when the monsters fort defence is geared to resisting a magic weapon attack.

As an aside I think this problem led to the death of the V class (PHB1 Cleric/Paladin/Warlock). I would be surprised if the designers actually thought terms such as Straladin & Chaladin would spring up. I suspect what we call Baladin, but with a major in str & minor in cha (or vice versa), was what they were thinking would be the norm. However keying the numbers so high meant that savvy players realized the need to specialize to beat the curve, or back when we were without expertise - simply to maintain the curve.

Imo I think the PHB3 & Essentials MM are positive steps in the right direction. The monster defences appear to have taken a slight hit in exchange for an increase in damage output. In other words the emphasis has shifted slightly back to the character defences - and this is something that hits the 18/14/11 character proportionately a little bit more.

 

[TarionzCousin]

:razz:

Wrong. He got banned from this site.

Topic - 3 out of 5.

Response - 1 out of 5. Full of "It depends" commentary and "imo" instead of "IMO."

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

House Rules: Bonus Feats « In the Eye of the Beholder

Greg Bilsland

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Mike Donais.

Thanks! This won't convince any stubborn non-believers, but maybe it'll convince the other DMs in my group to give us feat taxes.

Btw, what does Mike Donais do? His profile isn't very helpful.

 

[Aulirophile]

Thanks! This won't convince any stubborn non-believers, but maybe it'll convince the other DMs in my group to give us feat taxes.

Btw, what does Mike Donais do? His profile isn't very helpful.

He doesn't work for WotC anymore I don't believe, but he was on the original team that created and developed 4e. Not sure when he stopped working at WotC actually. Michael Donais is his full name, check the author(s) page on the original core books (and some others). He's on there.

 

[Jack99]

No, it was simply an example as to how a character could use a feat to be in the wheelhouse rather than lagging. There are dozens more, I just used one most people would be familiar with. The nonsense is what you're spewing about the developers saying something they didn't. It's a scaling bonus, not a scaling fix.

There are plenty of people on this very board who have stated and experienced characters working just fine without it. It's a nice bonus to have if you want to play a non-primary-attribute-bump rce and/or a +2 proficiency weapon. It's still a nice bonus if you use a primary bump/+3, but it's not needed or that important. The game works just fine without it.

Seriously, you did not just go there. Its an old discussion, and it has been won several times, and not by the side you are taking.

Expertise feats are necessary in order to keep up with the math. That's a fact. Now, you might not care if you only hit 45-55% of the time, which is fine. To each his own. But if you want to maintain the mathematical balance, expertise is a must. And no, there is not any other feats that all classes can take instead.

Merry Xmas

 

[Dragon Sin-Camealot]

I don't want to sift through the thousands of posts like an anti-trust case. I don't play often enough and don't make anything off playing. That's my personal problem with it.

I gave DnD a try and I guess it didn't work out. I heard 4.0 is neutered compared to the others. I'm not losing the encounters but I'm not excessively enjoying it. Final Fantasy Tactics was enough for me.

 

[Herschel]

Seriously, you did not just go there. Its an old discussion, and it has been won several times, and not by the side you are taking.

Expertise feats are necessary in order to keep up with the math. That's a fact. Now, you might not care if you only hit 45-55% of the time, which is fine. To each his own. But if you want to maintain the mathematical balance, expertise is a must. And no, there is not any other feats that all classes can take instead.

Merry Xmas

Seriously, I did go there because it's a valid point. Just because some char-op weenie arbitrarily made up a "you must hit x% of the time in a vaccuum" stat doesn't make it a necessity. Through heroic I get a better bonus through simple combat advantage and it's an even bonus through Paragon. And that doesn't take in to account leader buffs/de-buffs.

If a group plays together well, it's not an issue. If everyone is out for themselves, it can become one. Char-Op math is too limited in scope to be a "need" because it revolves around (essentially) nobody elsed in the party working with you.

Just because someone isn't milking every bonus they can doesn't mean they're having badwrongfun or the game is broken if they don't. That was a mentality that should have died with 3E, but it didn't.

 

[Herschel]

In other words, the game isn't reliant on stacking bonus upon bonus to work. Tactical bonuses can be as much or more than character bonuses and unless you're obsessed with the minutia of your character being the "star", it's not that big of a deal. Start with a 16 in your primary, bump it when possible, be tactically sound and the game will work.

You can optimize for accuracy, durability, defense, damage or flavor. Whichever way one goes fits in the game so long as they haven't essentially dumped their primary.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

In other words, the game isn't reliant on stacking bonus upon bonus to work. Tactical bonuses can be as much or more than character bonuses and unless you're obsessed with the minutia of your character being the "star", it's not that big of a deal. Start with a 16 in your primary, bump it when possible, be tactically sound and the game will work.

You can optimize for accuracy, durability, defense, damage or flavor. Whichever way one goes fits in the game so long as they haven't essentially dumped their primary.

Pretty much. Expertise is still a choice that has enough mechanical superiority that eventually basically any player that has ANY awareness of improving their character's combat capability WILL take it though. Necessary, not at all, despite what some people who haven't watched epic PCs curb stomp any and all opposition may think. It is just the easy way to get some extra hits and means you can pay less attention to decent party coordination.