Defenses and To Hits for Your Party ~ Averages
- Thread starter TarionzCousin
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AbdulAlhazred
Legend
I think the newer Expertise feats they put in Essentials are the ticket. Because they grant some interesting advantage besides just a flat attack bonus they actually are interesting feats. You get a chance to specialize in a weapon or whatever and pick some other little thing that is useful at the same time. Basically anyone with any math sense was already taking some form of expertise. Now they are DEFINITELY taking it but it isn't all just one single feat that feels like a tax. This pretty much solves whatever issues there were with it to a large extent.
I'll stay out of the whole 'max fix' argument, as that one is just a dead horse.
The DM should tailor the game to the players. Obviously the OP's players are not interested in being super optimized characters. So as others have said, just give them challenges that are fun for them. It is irrelevant if some other group of the same level is fighting stronger opponents. Not only that but they may well do better at some other things than at combat since they obviously put more effort into those things. The DM could also actually play off of their choices story-wise. Make a grueling endurance challenge that the dwarf blows the doors off of. Give the Eladrin an artifact spear to play with at some point, etc. Turn their idiosyncrasies into strengths of the game. Heck, play a bit on their weaknesses too in a mild way now and then. Make encounters with more and better offbeat ways to win, and such. 4e already seems to encourage players to do too little of that kind of stuff.
I'll stay out of the whole 'max fix' argument, as that one is just a dead horse.
The DM should tailor the game to the players. Obviously the OP's players are not interested in being super optimized characters. So as others have said, just give them challenges that are fun for them. It is irrelevant if some other group of the same level is fighting stronger opponents. Not only that but they may well do better at some other things than at combat since they obviously put more effort into those things. The DM could also actually play off of their choices story-wise. Make a grueling endurance challenge that the dwarf blows the doors off of. Give the Eladrin an artifact spear to play with at some point, etc. Turn their idiosyncrasies into strengths of the game. Heck, play a bit on their weaknesses too in a mild way now and then. Make encounters with more and better offbeat ways to win, and such. 4e already seems to encourage players to do too little of that kind of stuff.
Aulirophile
First Post
Or it was a fix, like the developers stated. Either/or. It is obviously a fix if you look at the math, assuming level appropriate magic items and a constant boost to your primary stat and an ED that boosts your primary stat, PC attacks fell behind monster defenses by one point per tier. Since scaling was supposed to result in PCs always basically hitting on the same number on the die again an even level monster, and they weren't, they released a feat that fixed it. Not a great solution, the new expertise feats that add something in addition to that really are better.
Flavor had nothing to do with it. Also a Dwarf Fighter with 16 Str might be a "flavorful" choice, but it is also one of the most amazingly optimized builds in existence, being the chassis for at least two Ultimate Defenders. You might want to pick a different example if you're only trying to demonstrate viability, as opposed to ridiculously optimizable.
AbdulAlhazred
Legend
Or no developer ever stated it was a fix for anything and it was generally intended to reward players for using specific iconic weapons etc. Everyone has a slant on that, just let it lay.
His example is perfectly fine. Sure, dwarven fighters are not at all gimped on the whole but with a 16 STR and a +2 weapon they aren't the most ACCURATE in the world either. Fresh off the boat at level 1 an old style dwarf wouldn't hit quite as hard as say a Goliath probably would, or even a half-orc. You COULD tweak that in a few different ways. Expertise only being one, though you would surely pick it up in mid-paragon at the latest.
His example is perfectly fine. Sure, dwarven fighters are not at all gimped on the whole but with a 16 STR and a +2 weapon they aren't the most ACCURATE in the world either. Fresh off the boat at level 1 an old style dwarf wouldn't hit quite as hard as say a Goliath probably would, or even a half-orc. You COULD tweak that in a few different ways. Expertise only being one, though you would surely pick it up in mid-paragon at the latest.
Aulirophile
First Post
But that wasn't the reason, and developers have stated it was a scaling fix.
Which is why they give out expertise free in their home games. His example was to demonstrate a "viable" class/race with a 16 in the main stat. Generally when you say something is "viable" it isn't also "one of the best defender builds in the whole game." It would be like saying "My build that does infinite damage on a miss is reasonably viable." It is just nonsensical.
No, it was simply an example as to how a character could use a feat to be in the wheelhouse rather than lagging. There are dozens more, I just used one most people would be familiar with. The nonsense is what you're spewing about the developers saying something they didn't. It's a scaling bonus, not a scaling fix.
There are plenty of people on this very board who have stated and experienced characters working just fine without it. It's a nice bonus to have if you want to play a non-primary-attribute-bump rce and/or a +2 proficiency weapon. It's still a nice bonus if you use a primary bump/+3, but it's not needed or that important. The game works just fine without it.
There are plenty of people on this very board who have stated and experienced characters working just fine without it. It's a nice bonus to have if you want to play a non-primary-attribute-bump rce and/or a +2 proficiency weapon. It's still a nice bonus if you use a primary bump/+3, but it's not needed or that important. The game works just fine without it.
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Prestidigitalis
First Post
I don't doubt what you say, but "the game" is a very malleable concept, as is "works just fine". DMs can easily adjust to lower character attack bonuses by not using many Soldiers, or by scaling encounters down a level, or handing out weapons with higher bonuses. Alternatively, if the party doesn't object to combats that all last an extra 15 or 20 minutes because they miss so much, and the DM gives them the breathing space for an extended rest after 3 encounters instead of 4 or 5, the DM may not have to change anything at all.
On the other hand, if a paragon tier character's attacks lag by a couple of points, but the character gets a lot of mileage out of feats like Agile Opportunist, everything balances out without the DM doing a damn thing.
Destil
Explorer
By 15th (11th for the essentials version) level there's absolutely no other viable alternate choice and no reason not to take an expertise feat. What would you take in it's place? A primarily non-combat PC will have been able to get most of the skill related feats by then. Even avengers and dagger rouges generally can't really do better than this.
Passing this up at 21st is like taking a 12 instead of an 18 in your primary at level 1. For pretty much everyone.
Verses MM1, 2 or 3 monsters? Because the power creep has been pretty obscene in some ways. Can't even justify calling it 'creep' for monsters, they're just flat out two to three better in epic now. More like a leap.
All monsters. Some of the defenses have been lowered w/ MM3 making them easier to hit. It is a good feat, I don't think anyone is saying it isn't, it's just not necessary. My mid-paragon Genasi Swordmage (for example) is always feat starved and hits pretty accurately. If you face a particularly high-defense foe, pick up a couple of Augmenting Whetstones if you're worried about it. They're pretty cheap by Paragon.
Prestidigitalis
First Post
You have noticed that Augmenting Whetstones grant an enhancement bonus, right? So a typical low Paragon character, who likely has a +3 weapon already, needs a +4 whetstone, which costs 1800 gp?
I don't know about your campaign, but the 13th level characters in my group do not have an extra 1800 gp floating around, just waiting to be spent making up for poor strategic planning.
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