Defensive Casting

[Aahz]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Defensive Casting

Cast Defensively - it seems wrong that a mage has as much chance to lose his spell because he's worried about the AoO from the goblin, as from the blackguard with his vorpal sword. Something should reflect the higher level of stress when facing a more dangerous opponent at point-blank range and performing an action that usually leaves one open to attack.

-Hyp.

Interesting... Perhaps a special use of the Intimidate skill is in order. It could be used kinda like the bluff/feint ability to give an opposing spellcaster a penalty on concentration checks for a short time.

We could call it Threaten or something.

Very interesting indeed... but then, I could just be crazy.

Sincerely,
Christopher J. Bono AKA Aahz

PS. I'm all for keeping the Casting Defensively bit as-is, but making more ways to affect your opponents Concentration checks could make them a little more interesting.

 

[Altalazar]

I don't think it is overpowered at all. You can attack on a readied action if you really want to focus on disrupting a spellcaster. Why should all foes automatically get to attack you just for using your primary class ability?

 

[KarinsDad]

I agree with Milo.

It is not that difficult, even without feats, for a spell caster to be very good at this. With a 14 in Con, the best chances (i.e. taking the skill every time) at each level for his highest level spells are:

1 55%
2 60%
3 60%
4 65%
5 65%
6 70%
7 70%
8 75%
9 75%
10 80%
11 80%
12 85%
13 85%
14 90%
15 90%
16 95%
17 95%
18 100%

Now on the surface, this may seem reasonable except that we are considering a caster who does not take Combat Casting, who has a Con of 14 which does not improve, and that these are his highest level spells. Consider first level spells for this same character:

1 55%
2 60%
3 65%
4 70%
5 75%
6 80%
7 85%
8 90%
9 95%
10 100%

Now, consider first level spells for this same character with Combat Casting:

1 75%
2 80%
3 85%
4 90%
5 95%
6 100%

or even his highest level spells:

1 75%
2 80%
3 80%
4 85%
5 85%
6 90%
7 95%
8 95%
9 100%

Or consider a spell caster with the Endurance spell cast on him.

Or consider a Bard, a Paladin, or a Ranger.

Or consider the fact that a spell caster can move back 5 feet to avoid AoOs completely in most circumstances and you will realize that the chances of losing a spell due to being in combat are extremely slim.

Or consider the fact that a lot of groups have fighters, monks, or rogues moving through combat trying to suck up AoOs.

Or consider the fact that a spell caster can choose to not cast defensively due to his protections (Shield of Faith, Magic Vestment, Shield, Mirror Image), and an AoO might miss. And, even if it hits, he still often has a fair chance of making a Concentration roll to still get the spell cast (unless grappled where he gets an AoO on the grappler usually to prevent it).

The point is that the chances are extremely high to cast spells in combat, even if he merely takes the skill every level and never boosts it with a feat.

When compared to the chances of an archer not getting AoOed in a threat area, these are extremely high.

Yes, once in a blue moon, a spell caster will lose a spell. But, it should be extremely rare that it happens.


As for a suggestion for Milo, I use a totally different system based off of the variant Tumbling rule from S&S.

If the cast defensively DC is missed, then you do not lose the spell. But, your opponent gets an AoO.

If the cast defensively DC is made, it merely sets the DC for a Reflex Save for the opponent. If he makes it, he still gets an AoO.

If the AoO hits, then another concentration roll is required to still get the spell off (just like normal). The DC is dependent on what happened, damage, grapple (which can automatically prevent a spell), whatever.

So, a high level spell caster might roll a 28 on his casting defensively, but even a first level character can roll a 20, make the Reflex save and take a poke at him. And, high level opponents have a better chance of AoOing than low level opponents as opposed to the abilities of the opponents having no bearing on it whatsoever. The chances of a god AoOing a spell caster with the core rules cast defensively rules are idential to a non-combatant Kobold's. Hmmmm.

So, there is no 100% chance of success with my system, there are only high chances of success. And, there shouldn't be 100% success chances. It's random chaotic combat. A spell caster should not always be able to do his best when being threatened.

 

[Cloudgatherer]

I don't quite understand the arguments here.

If you look at the skill system, the vast majority of the skills system require someone to beat a fixed DC. Tumble is 15/20, Concentration is 15 + spell level, Pick Pockets is 25. The remaining skills require opposed rolls, such as Spot vs. Hide, Move Silently vs. Listen, or Forgery vs. Forgery.

I've seen the same argument for tumble as has been presented for concentration. I think people often forget something crucial: when someone uses one of these skills against you, you only lose an "opportunity".

 

[Hypersmurf]

If you look at the skill system, the vast majority of the skills system require someone to beat a fixed DC. Pick Pockets is 25.

Pick Pockets is DC20 to succeed at lifting an item. But the interactive part of it is the opponent's opposed Spot check vs your Pick Pockets roll.

Makes sense.

-Hyp.

 

[Bronn Spellforger]

I must say, though, that the concentration rule is a HUGE change from 2E and makes magic-users a bit more powerful.

I remember in 2E, my ranger was climbing a narrow rocky cliff when he was attacked by a flying mage with stoneskin. My ranger just kept throwing rocks at him and fowling his spells!

In the new rules, though, my ranger wouldn't even have a chance to fowl his spells (no AoO if he was out of melee range).

But since I'm playing a Wizard now.. I love the concentration rule! My character has a huge CON (thanks to being a dwarf and having a toad) and has combat casting. At level 4, he's got 14 ranks in Concentration. Which means I need to roll a 3 or higher to succeed at my highest spell. Not bad!

My tricky DM gets me if I say I'm casting a spell and forget to say "defensively," though...

 

[pontus]

But since I'm playing a Wizard now.. I love the concentration rule! My character has a huge CON (thanks to being a dwarf and having a toad) and has combat casting. At level 4, he's got 14 ranks in Concentration.

You mean you have 7 ranks, and a total modifier of +14 I hope.

My tricky DM gets me if I say I'm casting a spell and forget to say "defensively," though...

Write "I'm casting defensively" on a note and paste it to your forehead. Problem solved.

Me, I like the rules just the way they are. I prefer the casters using spells while in melee range much more than having all casters stand in a little group behind the fighters, out of harm's reach .

 

[KarinsDad]

I don't quite understand the arguments here.

If you look at the skill system, the vast majority of the skills system require someone to beat a fixed DC. Tumble is 15/20, Concentration is 15 + spell level, Pick Pockets is 25. The remaining skills require opposed rolls, such as Spot vs. Hide, Move Silently vs. Listen, or Forgery vs. Forgery.

I've seen the same argument for tumble as has been presented for concentration. I think people often forget something crucial: when someone uses one of these skills against you, you only lose an "opportunity".

It's just a differing philosophy.

Some of us feel that skills like Tumble and Casting Defensively should not be based solely on the skill of the user.

Like Spot and Hide, there should be some form of defensive ability of the character you are trying to use the skill against for them to use.

If you Tumble Past or Cast Defensively next to a demi-god, he should almost always succeed in AoOing you.

If you Tumble Past or Cast Defensively next to a non-combatant Kobold, he should almost never succeed in AoOing you.

To us, Tumbling and Casting Defensively are combat skills and hence, should be dependent on the opponent's abilities as well as the character attempting it.

To us, Tumbling and Casting Defensively as written in the book allows the character to get so good at them that he never makes a mistake, even though he is in a chaotic combat situations. He gets to the level that he is perfect with it. No other element of combat has this level of perfection.

Perfect is fine for an extremely experienced craftsman who is taking his time to create a chair. But, nobody should be perfect every time with a skill in combat where their opponents are unable to mess it up. There should always be a chance, however slight, that the character screws up, mainly because he is in the chaotic mess called combat. He should not be able to always do it perfectly correct.

 

[Pielorinho]

Just imagine defensive casting a little differently, and you won't need any rules changes at all.

Normal spellcasting is full of big gestures and squeezing your eyes shut and shouting and concentrating on what you're doing and stuff like that. Your focus on the spell, rather than your focus on your surroundings, is what elicits the AoO. Imagine someone figuring out prime numbers in the middle of a battle and shouting them out as quickly as they can (maybe pantomiming the numbers), and you'll see how ripe they are for a thwack upside the head.

Casting defensively is different. Here, you're paying a lot more attention to what's around you, and making smaller gestures, and generally not opening yourself up so much. You easily avoid the AoO (just as you'd easily avoid an AoO by standing still and doing nothing), but given your focus on your surroundings, you have a harder time reciting the primes correctly and remembering the correct pantomimes. You have to make a concentration check to remember to do everything right, when you're paying attention to your surroundings.

Someone can still thwack you (with a readied action), and you still have to make another concentration check ("17, (whoops, dodge)! 19 (throw up staff to block)! 23 -- OW, dammit! Uh, uh, 27? No -- 29 -- dang!") But you're concentrating on your surroundings, so they'll not see as easy an opening as they would if you chose to cast the spell with your usual competence.

Imagined this way, no opposed roll is necessary, and it makes perfect sense that higher level wizards would easily know how to cast their spells in the middle of battle while paying attention to their surroundings.

Daniel

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

In my experience AoOs for casting are extremely rare because clever spellcasters know how to avoid them.

I really do not see that it is unreasonable for spellcaster who invests a couple precious feats avoiding the whole problem.

As for the super-concentration spellcaster casting in the middle of melee, his real danger is that someone will grapple him.

At all levels, most concentration checks occur from readied ranged attacks anyway. At higher levels, the availability of Haste makes this more practical, e.g. the Archer can unload his full attack 3 arrow volley and still save one to annoy the opposing wizard.