Define "munchkin"
- Thread starter Tuzenbach
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wizofice
First Post
I think when people refer to metagaming, it's a player using his own knowledge that his character might not have. For example, I recognize that the creatures the party has just run into are ghasts because another character in another campaign ran into them. My character for this campaign has never seen one before, however. So, I decide that my character (the barbarian) will back off and use only ranged weapons because I don't want him to be paralyzed. There's no way he'd know that. So rather than gaming, I'm metagaming.
As for munchkin, I generally think people mean powergamer when they say that. A powergamer is often someone who enjoys the game because they like to feel powerful through their character. They may do so by min-maxing, but not always. Grabbing and begging for powerful or broken magic items and abilities are another way. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a powergamer or munchkin, however.
See Monte Cook's article from June 2001, The Evolution of Munchkin.
As for munchkin, I generally think people mean powergamer when they say that. A powergamer is often someone who enjoys the game because they like to feel powerful through their character. They may do so by min-maxing, but not always. Grabbing and begging for powerful or broken magic items and abilities are another way. There's nothing inherently wrong with being a powergamer or munchkin, however.
See Monte Cook's article from June 2001, The Evolution of Munchkin.
Khayman
First Post
Tuzenbach said:
Munchkins often refers to power-gamers (and/or newbies) who are more concerned with 'lookit-what-I-can-do' than they are with the story.
Metagaming usually refers to gaming with table knowledge; that is, your character does something because you (the player) knows what's going on. However, I have also heard the term used in a broader sense, referring to DMs tinkering with the rules to affect player choice.
For all your gaming jargon needs, visit http://www.gamerjargon.com/.
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Dark Jezter
First Post
On a whole, munchkin is a term that has become so overused that it dosen't really mean anything anymore. As Gnarlo mentioned, munchkin usually translates to "somebody who plays in a way I disagree with" and it's usually used by "real roleplayers" to refer to "rollplayers" or "power-gamers."
Whisper72
Explorer
Most people when referring to the munchkin in a deregatory sense mean someone who not only powergames / rollplays, but who does so in an egotistical way, trying to outshine the other players and continually trying to 'outdo' other players' PC's in terms of power at the cost of in-game fun and to the detriment of the overall story. Examples of this are to kill any monster / NPC for XP, even though the nature of the game is such that they could have interesting information or make for great roleplaying moments in the game. To the munchkin these issues are less important then gaining more XP.
Thus, as I see it, powergaming as such and roll-playing as such are not bad things in and of themselves, as long as all players are having fun, and the powergamer and/or roll-players leave those who play a (slightly) different style in their own value. A real munchkin however, will put his/her own pleasure at attaining power over and above the fun of others, hence the vilifying use of the term.
This is as I understand how the term should be used.
Thus, as I see it, powergaming as such and roll-playing as such are not bad things in and of themselves, as long as all players are having fun, and the powergamer and/or roll-players leave those who play a (slightly) different style in their own value. A real munchkin however, will put his/her own pleasure at attaining power over and above the fun of others, hence the vilifying use of the term.
This is as I understand how the term should be used.
A "Munchkin" is the guy who can kill the dragon because he's got the perfect stats for his class, picked each of his 12 classes/prestige classes not because the combination makes any roleplaying sense but because he wants to get each of the specific class abilities at just the right moment and wants to maximize his quantity of skill points and feats. He's also probably badgered the DM into having at least a +5 sword of dragon-slaying.
He isn't technically cheating, he's just designed everything to be about his stats and being the best killer possible.
The "metagamer" is the guy who can kill the dragon because the PLAYER knows this dragon has a fatal vulnerability to blue cheese, even though the CHARACTER has no way of possibly knowing this (the player happened to read the DM's notes, or overheard the DM mentioning it to another character when his own character wasn't there). If he's a very clever metagamer then he'll try to justify his cheating by some absurd rationale ("well I just felt like buying some blue cheese earlier, and I figure there's nothing to lose in smearing some of it on my sword, even though I've never done that before and my character had expressed open hatred of blue cheese in the past").
Hope this clears things up.
Nisarg
He isn't technically cheating, he's just designed everything to be about his stats and being the best killer possible.
The "metagamer" is the guy who can kill the dragon because the PLAYER knows this dragon has a fatal vulnerability to blue cheese, even though the CHARACTER has no way of possibly knowing this (the player happened to read the DM's notes, or overheard the DM mentioning it to another character when his own character wasn't there). If he's a very clever metagamer then he'll try to justify his cheating by some absurd rationale ("well I just felt like buying some blue cheese earlier, and I figure there's nothing to lose in smearing some of it on my sword, even though I've never done that before and my character had expressed open hatred of blue cheese in the past").
Hope this clears things up.
Nisarg
Numion
First Post
IMO the difference between munchkinism and powergaming is that you can powergame anywhere - just make most use of anything you have, within the rules. Munchkins bend or break the rules, with the help of incompetent DM.
For example a powergamer probably would like to have the most powerful sword possible. Munchkin would insist to have two of those, bolted together to make the scissors of doom. Or for another example, a powergamer might wield two weapons for maximum effect. Munchkin would triple-wield, juggling three swords constantly.
I hope those two examples clear this somewhat. Bending the rules and making the DM allow strange things are characteristic of munchkins. A bit more over the top. So a competent and strict DM can disallow munchkinism, but powergaming is operating within the rules, so it might be difficult to get rid of it. Not that it even needed to be gotten rid of.
For example a powergamer probably would like to have the most powerful sword possible. Munchkin would insist to have two of those, bolted together to make the scissors of doom. Or for another example, a powergamer might wield two weapons for maximum effect. Munchkin would triple-wield, juggling three swords constantly.
I hope those two examples clear this somewhat. Bending the rules and making the DM allow strange things are characteristic of munchkins. A bit more over the top. So a competent and strict DM can disallow munchkinism, but powergaming is operating within the rules, so it might be difficult to get rid of it. Not that it even needed to be gotten rid of.
Eccles
Ragged idiot in a trilby.
I can remember posting something a while ago saying that one of my players was a bit of a munchkin, and being climbed all over by various posters, telling me I was well out of order and was being hugely insulting.
To me, it's not that big a deal; I've always read it as someone who squeezes their character a chunk more than is necessary. Frequently to the point that they're not a lot of good at several other things...
To me, it's not that big a deal; I've always read it as someone who squeezes their character a chunk more than is necessary. Frequently to the point that they're not a lot of good at several other things...
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