Deities and Demigods ~ Thank You God!

[Arcane Runes Press]

Information said:

As a perusal of the Web Enhancement will convey, D&Dg does not provide much detail on a deity's church or followers. However, I do not perceive this to be a drawback. Each campaign is unique, and campaigns likely to use one (or more) of the pantheons therein will tailor those deities and their faiths to their individual milieu.

I have to disagree with this in a huge way. The statement that each campaign is unique and that each DM will tailor deities to fit the milieu is just as easily applied to the listed stats as it is to faith and church info. IMO, the average DM is going to get more use out of suggested rituals, beliefs, prayers, church structures and, most importantly, interactions between gods and their churches and gods and their peers than they will from exact listings of Hextor's BAB. This is particularly true within the "default" Greyhawk pantheon, which does not benefits from the multitude of academic texts detailing the Norse, Greek and Egyptian pantheons.

I think the biggest problem comes in within the last sample pantheons, those that provide examples of Monotheistic, Dualistic and Mystery Cult religions. In each case, there is only a VERY brief listing of dogma and church issues, followed by long sets of statistics for a brand new god(gods) that NO ONE IS EVER LIKELY TO USE. Why? A Mystery Cult is not defined by the BAB of its deity. Why didn't they use that space to provide guidelines for building a convincing system of beliefs or, at the very least, break down exactly how the god's statistics infuenced the core beliefs of the faithful.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Re: On Flexor

He is perhaps the most irrational poster i have noted on these boards, many of his stances being overtly hypocritical and/or demogaugic........

Why have i posted this? I'm waiting for his reaction to prove my point....

Hey I'm getting recognition around here! My mom would be proud.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Roughly about the same way you keep up with Iuz... or Mordenkeinen... or the Circle of Eight...

Iuz is a god, you aren't supposed to keep up with him.

Mordenkeinen is one of the very few PC's that would be covered under the Epic Rules, the rest of the circle of 8 is made up of 17-20th level wizards. Bigby, another big boy, is 19th level. They are easily handled with the core rules.

How many FR NPC's are epics?

 

[Richards]

Hey, I've got a Deities and Demigods question of a different sort...I flipped through the book at my local gaming store and was quite shocked by the picture of Gruumsh, the one-eyed god of the orcs. He was drawn as a cyclops! I know he's only got one eye, but I was always under the impression that he originally had two eyes and lost one in a fight with Corellon (which is why orcs hate elves so much). Am I misremembering? I always pictured Gruumsh as either wearing an eyepatch or having a gaping open hole where one of his eyes should be.

Can anyone provide confirmation or rebuttal?

Johnathan

 

[The Traveler]

Hey, I've got a Deities and Demigods question of a different sort...I flipped through the book at my local gaming store and was quite shocked by the picture of Gruumsh, the one-eyed god of the orcs. He was drawn as a cyclops! I know he's only got one eye, but I was always under the impression that he originally had two eyes and lost one in a fight with Corellon (which is why orcs hate elves so much). Am I misremembering? I always pictured Gruumsh as either wearing an eyepatch or having a gaping open hole where one of his eyes should be.

Can anyone provide confirmation or rebuttal?

The orcs claim he was always one-eyed. The elves tell the tale of how Corellon put his eye out. In his Avatar, he looks like a cyclops to try to perpetuate the way the orcs tell it. The truth is generally unknown.

At least that's how it was presented in Monster Mythology in 2E.

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Gruumsh was shown as being a cyclops as far back as the 1e DDG, illustrated by Jeff Dee. He's been shown in every picture of him I've seen as a cyclops. This is despite the fact that even the earliest stories of him that I can remember reading said he was blinded by Corellon. It does seem strange. I remember reading that it shows how single-mided he is, but still...

Anyway, I hope someone does stat write-ups for the various humanoid gods, like the rest of the orcish pantheon (especially Gruumsh's son, whose name I forget, who is dumb as a fence post but is one of the strongest of the Greyhawk pantheon), and Maglubiyet. Aw, why not everybody in Monster Mythology?

 

[Killer Shrike]

Gruumsh was shown as being a cyclops as far back as the 1e DDG, illustrated by Jeff Dee. He's been shown in every picture of him I've seen as a cyclops. This is despite the fact that even the earliest stories of him that I can remember reading said he was blinded by Corellon. It does seem strange. I remember reading that it shows how single-mided he is, but still...

Anyway, I hope someone does stat write-ups for the various humanoid gods, like the rest of the orcish pantheon (especially Gruumsh's son, whose name I forget, who is dumb as a fence post but is one of the strongest of the Greyhawk pantheon), and Maglubiyet. Aw, why not everybody in Monster Mythology?

Bagtru the Brutish if memory serves.

 

[Killer Shrike]

Iuz is a god, you aren't supposed to keep up with him.

Mordenkeinen is one of the very few PC's that would be covered under the Epic Rules, the rest of the circle of 8 is made up of 17-20th level wizards. Bigby, another big boy, is 19th level. They are easily handled with the core rules.

How many FR NPC's are epics?

Dont forget Rary and Philodor the Blue Mage (or whatever his/her/its name was). And what level was Tenser when he made his big comeback?

But other than that, pretty much everyone in Oerth thus far seen is sub-Epic if memory serves.

 

[Renshai]

Well if you have a DM who wants to run a munchkin game then any setting can be perverted.

This is true. Its true of any setting. NPCs of various power levels have no effect on this. None whatsoever.

I remember the first time I looked at the 3e FRCS. What is the first thing I see in the beginning of the book? Stats for Elmunchkin in all his "glory".

You see, you degrade yourself in the first point of your argument. You make no rational argument here. You use a “tired” and quite infantile insult instead. Elminster has nothing to do with the Realms, other than being a retired adventurer that lives there. He does not define the Realms, and they do not define him. For the majority of people who play or run the Realms he is a non-issue. Only people that insist of harping on the Realms bring him up for argument’s sake.

It was funny that they had to do their own "epic" level rules as soooo many of the NPC's were of sickening levels of power and couldn't be done under the rules fo the core books.

Once again, a narrow-minded view. You assume that WotC never intended to create Epic Level Rules? You assume that the power level was supposed to stop at 20th level? It was a convenient stopping point for the core books. Some people might enjoy play beyond that level. It is not for you to belittle or judge them because they might enjoy it. The baseline rules were NOT created just so the designers could define Realms NPCs. They were defined as the basis for the upcoming Epic Level Handbook.

There are seemingly endless waves of Chosens of this or that god, everyone is superjacked in levels and power. TO be a major player in the FR you have to be a Munchkin, otherwise how are you going to keep up with Elmunchkin and his gang?

There are very god reasons for Mystra having several Chosen, but I honestly wouldn’t expect you to know why. Other gods have Chosen followers. What is wrong with this? Templates are a very interesting way to add depth to a game and expand it beyond the core status quo.

As far as being a major player… give me a break. In 10 years of running the Realms for different people not ONE person has ever complained that Elminster makes them feel inadequate. The existing rules in D&D allow for very powerful characters. The Forgotten Realms just happened to be the first book to deal with characters that exceed that maximum. Exceeding 20th level is GOING to happen. Some people want rules for it, some don’t. Belittling those who do is childish and mean-spirited.


You keep using the term Munchkin. You mean it in a derogatory manner…. Why do you insist on passing judgment on someone else’s favored manner of play. Or more apt, what you perceive to be Munchkin.

The last time I checked keeping up with NPCs was not the point of Dungeons and Dragons.


Since the time that Greyhawk was first released the game has changed. Its dynamic is very different. Comparing Greyhawk and the Forgotten Realms is like comparing apples and oranges. There is no point. It is a matter of taste.

Mordenkainen & Rary would be middling mages in the FRCS, and they are the big hitters in Greyhawk. But if you like it more power to you. IMO it sucks.

Like I said, Greyhawk was created along time ago, before the thought of passing above 20th level in the “Advanced” rules was even considered. It was expanded in AD&D as time progressed. Greyhawk was dropped for various reasons and therefore never adapted and evolved with the changing atmosphere.

It amazes me that some people play games in a fantasy setting, but insist that some sort of cap must be placed on the scope of that fantasy.

If playing in a world where 20th level is the upper extent of attainable power suits you, then more power to you. Don’t pass judgment on people that like to imagine power that can shake the heavens and earth. I’d dare say those people are having more carefree fun at their games than you are.

Ren

 

[Dahak]

Gruumsh was shown as being a cyclops as far back as the 1e DDG, illustrated by Jeff Dee. He's been shown in every picture of him I've seen as a cyclops. This is despite the fact that even the earliest stories of him that I can remember reading said he was blinded by Corellon.

I've seen one drawing of him having an eyepatch. It was in the Best of Dragon Volume 3 (I think, may have been vol 4). It compiled the various articles on other demihuman deities that eventually made it into Unearthed Arcana.

And remember these folks are deities. There's nothing to say that Corellon didn't use some sort of magic in the attack that removed his eye, that basically altered him into a cyclops. Or that Gruumsh couldn't heal the wound, but could alter his appearance into that of a cyclops to save face. (bad pun intended)