Deities and Demigods ~ Thank You God!

Hi Ancalagon! :)

Ancalagon said:
This would be a valid argument if the rules didn't SUCK so much. "God level play"? unplayable I say.

Allow me to interject! ;)

Ancalagon said:
Example: Moradin is the most powerfull god (rank wise) of the D&D pantheon (why? I don't know), with the sole exception of Corellon larethian who is his equal. Moradin has the anhiliating strike ability, wich allows him to obliterate anything of a lower divine rank than him. The DC (fort) to avoid being utterly destroyed is 91. Most gods can' t make that save, even with an always 20 rule.

So we have a rule set that makes the dwarf god able to destroy the rest of the pantheon on a whim. "Nice".

So we have found the divine equivalent of the 'Harm' spell. :)

Two points; firstly you could Rule-0 it (since it appears clearly overpowered) or modify it.

My second point (and remember I still don't have the book yet) is that I can't believe they didn't seperate the salient divine abilities into Extraordinary and Supernatural! I don't agree with an arbitrary ignorance of Anti-magic - even for deities.

Annihilating strike is clearly a supernatural ability.
 

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So you haven't done any roleplaying in 3rd Ed. yet because you need Monster Manual 2 before you begin - is that what you're saying!?
Now now, no need to be facetious...
I think 3E needs more monsters in order to compete with past D&D editions, as I find the current range in the Monster Manual books both limited and sub-par compared to previous incarnations. I'll go out on a limb and argue that monster stats are a lot more useful to D&D gamers than god stats, and far more important to the game. Luckily there are things like the Creature Catalog to stop this particular gap, but the core books shouldn't be lacking in this regard in the first place, since "lots of cool monsters" has been in the past of the main sources of the appeal of D&D, and one which the core books score poorly on, IMO.
far be it from anyone to use their imagination ('dream') in a roleplaying game.
People dream over books containing useful material directly applicable to their games as well, you don't need a book devoted to frivolous material of dubious utility to spark imagination or procrastinate over your campaign. All IMO, of course, imagination as an end in itself is fine, but you usually expect more from a game supplement...
WotC are presenting interesting options that can take campaigns in new directions - what do you think D20 Call of Cthulhu is; or D20 Modern; or divine characters in Deities & Demigods!
Well, the former two are effectively new games. You can do the cross-genre thing with them if you want to, or introduce Cthulhu-critters and shotguns into your D&D campaign (or vice versa), but I wouldn't call d20 CoC or d20 Modern direct support for D&D as such, but rather for their d20 line.

Directly fighting gods toe-to-toe (as opposed to indirectly fighting them, which is common) is unlikely to become a campaign focus in your average D&D campaign. Not so in your campaigns nor those of your 150 friends, perhaps, but I suspect that the majority of campaigns won't involve crossing swords with a deity more than once in a blue moon...if ever. May as well devote a hardback to stats for garden vegetables, that would bring your campaign in new directions. They'll be encountered more often than gods, and could be hostile... :eek: :D

Of course, the ELH could change all this, but the past is a guide, IMO.
Are you honestly telling me you have never fought the Were-Manta Paratroopers that fall from an inverted branch of the river Styx!?
About as often as I've seen PCs go toe-to-toe with gods...
 
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Actually Evil once again got the shaft! Why are Kurtulmak and Gruumsch much weaker than Gods of Good Races? Gruumsch should have been Divine Rank 19, Kurtulmak and Lloth 17! From ones that haven`t appeared in book, I see Chief Gods Of Ililthidi, Beholders and Goblins in 18-19 range. Chief Deities of races like Sahuagin or Troglodytes would be in range of 15-17.
 

Hi rounser! :)

rounser said:
Now now, no need to be facetious...

Sorry mate! ;)

rounser said:
I think 3E needs more monsters in order to compete with past D&D editions, as I find the current range in the Monster Manual books both limited and sub-par compared to previous incarnations. I'll go out on a limb and argue that monster stats are a lot more useful to D&D gamers than god stats, and far more important to the game. Luckily there are things like the Creature Catalog to stop this particular gap, but the core books shouldn't be lacking in this regard in the first place, since "lots of cool monsters" has been in the past of the main sources of the appeal of D&D, and one which the core books score poorly on, IMO.

Sophistry.

Obviously monsters are more important overall, but not at the expense of everything else. The way you were talking anyone would think there were no monsters available! :D

There must be 100 published monsters for every deity statted in D&Dg!

We have: the Monster Manual; Creature Collection; Diablerie; E-Minions; Monsters of Faerun; Legions of Hell; Creature Collection 2; Monsters of Rokugan; Nightmares & Dreams; Jade Dragons & Hungry Ghosts (and those are just the ones off the top of my head).

Not to mention many sourcebooks have a significant Monster chapter devoted to them (Psionics Handbook; Manual of the Planes; Oriental Adventures; Call of Cthulhu - referencing the ones I own)

Lets look at whats on the horizon: Armies of the Abyss; Monster Manual 2; Tome of Horrors...and many more I am sure!?

So is it just too much to ask for Deities & Demigods!? No - it isn't!

rounser said:
People dream over books containing useful material directly applicable to their games as well, you don't need a book devoted to frivolous material of dubious utility to spark imagination or procrastinate over your campaign. All IMO, of course, imagination as an end in itself is fine, but you usually expect more from a game supplement...

Are you honestly saying you can't imagine any scenarios where you could use material from Deities & Demigods!?

rounser said:
Well, the former two are effectively new games. You can do the cross-genre thing with them if you want to, or introduce Cthulhu-critters and shotguns into your D&D campaign (or vice versa), but I wouldn't call d20 CoC or d20 Modern direct support for D&D as such, but rather for their d20 line.

The only direct support for D&D are the Core Rulebooks. Everything else is a niche product and by extension optional.

rounser said:
Directly fighting gods toe-to-toe (as opposed to indirectly fighting them, which is common) is unlikely to become a campaign focus in your average D&D campaign.

I agree. But now we have the option.

Before the Psionics Handbook we didn't have the psionics option. Before Oriental Adventures we didn't have the option of that setting.

Etc.

rounser said:
Not so in your campaigns.

We have engaged in many campaigns over the years. Obviously deities, were not an interactive factor in most, but does that mean they shouldn't be a factor in any - of course not!

rounser said:
nor those of your 150 friends

This was a reference to feedback from gamers I have had on the subject.

rounser said:
but I suspect that the majority of campaigns won't involve crossing swords with a deity more than once in a blue moon...if ever.

Obviously they won't if they can't.

rounser said:
May as well devote a hardback to stats for garden vegetables, that would bring your campaign in new directions. They'll be encountered more often than gods, and could be hostile...

Roleplaying is inspired a lot more by religion/mythology (of which the gods are a significant part) than vegetable gardening.

I suggest a comprimise - how about a God of Vegetables! :D

Perhaps Haoma (Persian) or Moander?

rounser said:
Of course, the ELH could change all this, but the past is a guide, IMO.

The past is a guide. Luckily WotC have learned from the myopic sterility of 2nd Ed.

rounser said:
About as often as I've seen PCs go toe-to-toe with gods...

You want to get out more! :D
 



Re: Re: I Hate to say this folks...

Nightfall said:


There's a Scarred Land Module!? Hmm JD/Dru must have not mentioned this one. Are you SURE you didn't get the Scarred Lands Dm's Screen? Or perhaps something more like Secrets and Societies?

Sorry, I double checked it last night, it is called the Ruins of Albythor or something like that, and it is actually not set in the SL. Having not actually read it yet (still reading through Burok Torn after just finishing Mithril: City of the Golem), I can't comment, but it looks like a TPK might very well be likely with this one.

Sadly, I'm not sure if I'll be able to use it for a while, since my players are getting somewhat sick of all the dungeon-delving... I think I'll give them something different, and run this adventure in another campaign.

I thought it was SL because it was published under the Sword & Sorcery name... my bad.
 

Finally printed out the Creature Catalog and put it in a nice binder. It's official in my campaign now. I don't need to whine about not having stats for Demon Lords and Arch-Devils as they are all at my fingertips now. And a lot of undead as well. Very well done conversions and a heavy 1e emphasis, no Asmodeus is an uber god jazz...

AND GERYON & MOLOCH STILL RULE THIER PLANES of HELL!!!! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!
 

Upper_Krust said:
Hi Scott mate! :)



Well I'm waiting for the Tome of Horrors - so get back to work! :D

Actually it is done for the most part. I have a few more new demons and devils to design, but for the most part it is being edited (by Clark and me). :D

Monster count should be closer to 420 when we finish. :D
 

We have: the Monster Manual; Creature Collection; Diablerie; E-Minions; Monsters of Faerun; Legions of Hell; Creature Collection 2; Monsters of Rokugan; Nightmares & Dreams; Jade Dragons & Hungry Ghosts (and those are just the ones off the top of my head).
If you stick to the WotC books, that leaves Monster Manual and Monsters of Faerun. I have content problems (oriental critters, scarred lands style critters and demons and devils are not to everyone's taste) or balance problems (getting CRs "right" for instance) with much of the rest besides the Creature Catalogue because it covers the system for a whole bunch of missing monsters that were staples of past editions of the game and would have liked to see in the core books...and as you mention:
The only direct support for D&D are the Core Rulebooks. Everything else is a niche product and by extension optional.
...and one of those core books, for me, is lacking a lot of the core appeal of D&D - namely cool monsters.

But, to make myself clear, I'm not really saying it should have been replaced by a monster book in particular - more that I think WotC is too concerned with releasing "window dressing" books rather than covering more compelling holes in the product line. For instance, where are the non-megadungeon 3E campaign books from WotC? Nowhere, they don't exist. You can get RttToEE which is a big megadungeon, buy all the Adventure Path series and go for a railroad-a-thon, or wait for the upcoming City of the Spider Queen and go for another crawl.

The DMG devotes chapters to how to create a varied and marvellous campaign, but WotC hasn't bothered to provide an example, and save DMs who aren't interested in yet another megadungeon or railroad-fest a massive amount of work. Put such a thing into a hardback with the D&DG page count, and new players (as well as long-time ones) would have an option of not entering another endless dungeon if they want to play a prepublished campaign.

Hats off to the d20 publishers spending large page counts on stuff which actually saves DMs work, such as the recent city books. They're not to everyone's taste, but far more useful (IMO) than a book that concentrates on something of such questionable utility as god statistics.

Note that this is only my own perspective, tastes and prejudices, and just as you see a world of options opened by D&DG, I look upon it's content focus as a waste of resources (time, talent and money). I can do without D&DG and can see other things I'd preferred to have seen in it's place, but obviously others - such as yourself - would prefer to have the D&DG. The door has opened for entire campaigns based around overthrowing pantheons directly, yet I think that it would have been nice to see WotC get some of the basics in order and fulfil some other promises that D&D implies before branching so far afield of what I consider to be D&D's core focus.
Are you honestly saying you can't imagine any scenarios where you could use material from Deities & Demigods!?
No, I'm not. I am saying that I expect it will have minimal utility to the majority of players, though, and that it will probably sell based on it's novelty rather than it's usefulness. That's just my suspicions though; as I have mentioned, widespread use of the ELH may well prove me wrong.
The past is a guide. Luckily WotC have learned from the myopic sterility of 2nd Ed.
2nd Ed had the Time of Troubles in FR, which featured gods fighting and dying on the surface of Toril. It is widely regarded as an event that many FR gamers wish had never happened.
 

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