Deities & Demigods + ELH = ?

[~Joseph~]

now I just had a look at the preview and enhancement to Dieties and Demigods, and I noticed that none of the gods have Epic levels, now I was wondering, is wizards going to have an appendix for epic level gods in the ELHB?
does any body out there care?

Dicouse amongst yourselves

 

[Crothian]

I think these to books are going to be pretty seperate. Wizards has so far refrained from having books use anything other then the core books. I understand why they are since you only need the core books to play, but I'd really like to see a heck of a lot more cross pollenization.

 

[Nightfall]

Personally I side with Croth here. We don't NEED epic level gods JUST yet, since we are STILL wondering at the power an epic level CHARACTER might obtain. Thus I don't see why we need to change or add anything UNTIL the ELH become available.

 

[jollyninja]

yeah, if you want vecna to have epic wizard levels, buy the book and give them to him, the question is does he really need them? i suppose if the question of "how many hit points does vecna have left?" will ever come up in your campaign the answer is "heck yes he does!" personally, while it's nice to know, i can't see my group fighting any divine power worth it's name. though they did say there would be some crossover, does that mean that epic characters perhaps will be able to get some of the stuff from dieties and demigods?

 

[jasamcarl]

A poor choice of words..

The stat blocks in Dieties and Demigods are perfectly consistent with the Epic level rules, these characters simply use the multiclass option. If you remove the divine ranks, you could play these characters as epic level characters and in theory their power level is equivilant to the single-classed epic character.

The reason that no class goes beyond 20 is because (1) they might not have been finalized at the time of completion, (2) if they were, the particular rules neccessary to actually USE the gods would have taken an inordinatly high page count for little gain and if they had not, then the utility of some material would have been suspended until the release of the ELH, and (3) they want to sustain the maximum market value for the ELH.

It isn't a huge loss, from what i gather, class levels have pathetic utility relative to Salient Divine Abilities

 

[Upper_Krust]

Re: A poor choice of words..

Hi jasamcarl mate!

The stat blocks in Dieties and Demigods are perfectly consistent with the Epic level rules,

Consistent yes, but not appreciative of!

these characters simply use the multiclass option.

Thats right. Technically any character above 20 Levels (total) is an Epic character.

If you remove the divine ranks, you could play these characters as epic level characters and in theory their power level is equivilant to the single-classed epic character.

Except that obviously comparable Epic characters utilising Epic Feats, Epic Magic and Epic Items will be superior.

The reason that no class goes beyond 20 is because (1) they might not have been finalized at the time of completion,

Well the Epic Level Handbook is out in 3 months so at worst design was only ever 3 months behind Deities & Demigods.

To be honest releasing D&Dg first is like putting the cart before the horse!

(2) if they were, the particular rules neccessary to actually USE the gods would have taken an inordinatly high page count for little gain and if they had not, then the utility of some material would have been suspended until the release of the ELH,

Personally I think they should have combined the rules for both deities and epic characters into one rulebook and made that a core rulebook.

Subsequently they could have released Deities & Demigods with perhaps a half dozen Pantheons derived from these 'new' core rules.

and (3) they want to sustain the maximum market value for the ELH.

You would envision that 90% of people who purchase Deities & Demigods will also buy the Epic Level Handbook.

It isn't a huge loss, from what i gather, class levels have pathetic utility relative to Salient Divine Abilities

...and the Death Star is insignificant next to the power of the force*

*views not mimicked by the spirits of the people of Alderaan.

Divine Ranks obviously confer more power than a single level increase. But levels are obviously still a factor; firstly amongst deities (is 60HD/Level DR19 Odin as powerful as 70HD/Level DR19 Zeus?) and subsequently amidst comparing Epic characters to Divine characters.

The 71st-level Lady of the Mountain (Epic character) previewed a few weeks back would probably defeat Iuz (50HD DR3) or Hercules (40HD DR5) but probably not Kord (60HD DR14).

...this assumes we remove the "Sword of Divine Fury" - which seems perhaps over-powered(?)

My preliminary investigation determines:

Divine Rank 0 = +6 Levels
Each Subsequent Divine Rank = +3 Levels

eg.
Erbin (Quasi-deity) = 1 + 6 = Effective 7 Levels
Erbin (Demigod) = 2 + 9 = Effective 11 Levels
Erbin (Lesser God) = 10 + 24 = Effective 34 Levels = CR 27
Erbin (Intermediate Deity) = 20 + 39 = Effective 59 Levels = CR 34
Erbin (Greater Deity) = 40 + 54 = Effective 94 Levels = CR 41

Imhotep = 20 + 9 = Effective 29 Levels = CR 24

Iuz = 50 + 15 = Effective 65 levels = CR 36

Hercules = 40 + 21 = Effective 61 Levels = CR 35

Lady of the Mountain 71st-level = CR 37

Kord = 60 + 48 = Effective 108 levels = CR 43

Nerull = 50 + 57 = Effective 107 levels = CR 43

Odin = 60 + 63 = Effective 123 levels = CR 45*

Zeus = 70 + 63 = Effective 133 levels = CR 46*

Azathoth = 72 + 66 = Effective 138 levels = CR 47

*Under such auspices the difference between Zeus and Odin seems negligable.

Of course the above mechanics haven't been fully tested yet (I don't have CoC or D&Dg yet)

The above system uses a base three.

If you switch to a base four then Azathoth works out at CR 50; Zeus CR 49; Odin CR 48; Nerull & Kord CR 45; Iuz and Hercules CR 37 etc.

Any comments?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Using base 4

Divine Rank 0 = +8 Levels
Each Subsequent Divine Rank = +4 Levels

eg.
Erbin (Quasi-deity) = 1 + 8 = Effective 9 Levels
Erbin (Demigod) = 2 + 12 = Effective 14 Levels
Erbin (Lesser God) = 10 + 32 = Effective 42 Levels = CR 30
Erbin (Intermediate Deity) = 20 + 52 = Effective 72 Levels = CR 38
Erbin (Greater Deity) = 40 + 72 = Effective 112 Levels = CR 44

 

[Moon_Goddess]

Re: Re: A poor choice of words..

Lady of the Mountain 71st-level = CR 37

I don't know what math your using to determine the CRs for Deities, so I can't discuss that. But I fail to see how it's possbilbe for a 71 level NPC to be anything other than a CR71

 

[jasamcarl]

Upper Krust....

You are again demonstrating your bias, for in truth your presumption that 90% of those who purchase the ELH will also purchase D&D is baseless. The ELH will obvioulsy have a much wider audience because it is a cross Player/DM product as well as a cross Core/FR one. And i don't trust your judgment of Wotc's production schedual or cost estimates...

I never considered myself a great economist, or econ major that matter, but you suggestion that they bundle the ELH and DaD is also flawed. For that to work, both the size of the audience of either product would have to be similiar (and as i stated above, they are not) and the reservation price for either market would have to by high for one, and comparitavly low for the other, which is also not the case. Not to mention actually placing both in one book would not present us with a constant cost model; from what Sean K. has stated before, i gather that after a certain page limit, the marginal cost of increasing such probably rises considerably..Wotc appears to be appealing to two audiences in an efficient manner...

I'll ignore your math because the term 'your estimation' leaves a lot to be desired, but i will say this about the relative power of the gods...there are two types of abilities, those that complement other abilities and 'Stack' and those that remain independent... In the case of Salient Divine Abilities its debatable how these and standard feats or class abilities complement each other...its probably the case that many don't though we know some do, so the IN GAME ability of the Gods in the EYES OF THE PLAYERS will not be effected to a great degree...the Gods are perfectly usable as is....

 

[Upper_Krust]

Challenge Ratings

Hi there!

I don't know what math your using to determine the CRs for Deities, so I can't discuss that. But I fail to see how it's possbilbe for a 71 level NPC to be anything other than a CR71

My mistake for not crediting the CR modifications.

They are from something I have been working on, I posted the full set of rules a number of times before, hold on I'll go get them:

***

Firstly, this work concentrates on levels/hit dice above 20th.

The premise is based on a single character of 'x'+4 Challenge Rating being roughly equivalent to four characters of CR 'x'.

eg.
A being of CR24 is supposedly equal to four beings of CR20.
A being of CR28 is supposedly equal to sixteen beings of CR20.
etc.

Okay here is my solution; its pretty simple:

Actual Levels
1-20th_______CR = +1/1 Level
21-40th______CR = +1/2 per Level
41-80th______CR = +1/4 per Level
81-160th_____CR = +1/8 per Level
161-320th____CR = +1/16 per Level

Examples
30th-level character = CR25
40th-level character = CR30
60th-level character = CR35
80th-level character = CR40
160th-level character = CR50

eg. Elminster 35th-level Chosen of Mystra
Formerly CR39 (it gives CR45 but that is unfounded) now CR29 - which I think is more reflective of his power.

Okay, say the parties average Level is 60 (page 166 of the DMG shows that EXP for an equal CR is a multiple of 300).
So 60 x 300 = 18,000

Therefore a 60th-level party fighting an equal CR encounter will gain 18,000 XP.

Now remember that under my method a 60th-level character only equals CR35. So a character party that averages 60th-level will also average CR35!

Now since encounters are only recommended at between 8 below or 8 above the party average CR, use this following table to calculate XP:

CR -8 = divide by 16
CR -7 = divide by 12
CR -6 = divide by 8
CR -5 = divide by 6
CR -4 = divide by 4
CR -3 = divide by 3
CR -2 = divide by 2
CR -1 = divide by 1.5
CR +/-0 = Party Average Level x 300
CR +1 = x1.5
CR +2 = x2
CR +3 = x3
CR +4 = x4
CR +5 = x6
CR +6 = x8
CR +7 = x12
CR +8 = x16

eg #1. a 60th-level party fighting an 80th-level character (CR40)
60 x 300 = 18,000
CR40 is +5 the parties average CR which means x6 EXP.
18,000 x 6 = 108,000 EXP

eg #2. a 40th-level party fighting a 22nd-level Lich (CR22)
40 x 300 = 12,000
CR22 is -8 the parties average CR which means divide EXP by 16.
12,000 divided by 16 = 750 EXP