Deities' favoured weapons

[Snoweel]

Just wondering how people feel about D&D deities and the 'favoured weapon' each is listed with.

Obviously the assumption carries to clerics, and their willingness to participate in combat.

Does it make sense that each cleric of even non-martial deities has heavy armour proficiency, as well as proficiency with all simple weapons?

Does the fact that the cleric is designed to be a capable melee combatant, rankle anyone else?

Priests throughout the fantasy genre are largely more magical than combat-inclined, and except within the context of being the only character with access to healing magic in a party of 4 different types of adventurers, the abilities of D&D clerics just don't make sense.

Considering that it's general consensus that clerics are more powerful than other classes (since they are likely going to use most of their magic on the other PC's), does anyone else feel there's a place for a sawn-off, NPC (or PC, for the verisimilitudinists) cleric class?

Say, with less hp's, reduced armour and weapon proficiencies and maybe a weak fortidude save?

In my opinion, this modification "feels" more like a fantasy priest-type than the PHB cleric, and it's only in the interests of making the "team medic" more than a support character that the PHB cleric is so combat ready.

What are your thoughts?

 

[Snoweel]

Anybody?

 

[tleilaxu]

pithy post:

clerics of different gods need to be more different from each other, including addressing all that stuff you said.

 

[MerricB]

In my opinion, this modification "feels" more like a fantasy priest-type than the PHB cleric, and it's only in the interests of making the "team medic" more than a support character that the PHB cleric is so combat ready.

Correct. And there's no "only" about it.

D&D is about having fun, and doing so by bashing things up and taking their loot. The classes that can't do anything in combat are the ones that aren't played often. (Thus the problem with the 3E Bard... it's gotten better, but it's still too much of a support character).

Fighters are just good at fighting.
Rogues can sneak around and backstab.
Wizards cast fancy spells to take down their opponents.

What can Clerics do? If you deny them fighting skills, then they become a half-wizard, if that.

It's easy to imagine an NPC cleric without the fighting skills, but in truth there's no need to create that class within the game - the DM controls the NPC, so can use the standard Cleric class and just have the NPC be a non-combatant.

Cheers!

 

[pogre]

I have always thought of D&D clerics as being like templars devoted to a particular church/temple. Certainly in early medieval Europe monks, clerics, and bishops often did fight in wars. Arguably, Paladins fill this role, but they are not really fighting priests in the sense I am speaking of.

I know many feel like Clerics are too powerful, but I'm glad they are powerful in 3E. A lot more people like to play them and a D&D party without a cleric is usually in trouble.

 

[Daiymo]

Hmmm> I thought I replied to this but I guess that internet hiccup a couple of hours ago meant it didnt take.

I side with pogre and MerricB on this. I have always thought of clerics as adventurers. Theyre not abbots or preachers in the church, theyre out in the world champions of thier deities. Even the non combat gods. They're out fighting evil.

If you do take away theyre combat abilites, you do have a half wizard. Even druids can fight a little. If you take away the weapon/armor capabilites, all clerics will do is stand around and heal, and occasionaly turn.

As for the favored weapon, Ive liked his idea-adds flavor to RPing. It can really give your cleric a focus for his character.

Are clerics strong characters? Yes. Are clerics fun? yes. Should they be nerfed? Why? they serve a valuable unique service to the party as is.


Then again all this discussion about this class and the other is just a matter of opinion. If you want to make the cleric the equivilant of the adept NPC class, its your game universe, go ahead.

If you are in some way philosophically opposed to the PHB cleric, may I suggest the OA shugenja? This class is definetly an all out caster/no melee, who cast divine spells both healing and offensive. Of course in most OA campaigns, there are few sorcerers, or wizards, and usually no druids. Shugenjas are usually the exclusive spellcasters, as in Rokugan.

 

[Frostmarrow]

Contrary to common belief the cleric would be a better class if stripped of their healing ability. Each character can do one thing per round. If you are expected to use that round to heal you are in a sense losing an opportunity to do something you'd really like to do.

If you wanted to put a damper on a class that was to good the best way to do it would be to give that class healing capabilities. Imagine a fighter with healing capabilities. It would be pretty boring to play, don't you think?

Ergo, the cleric must have lots of great abilities to make up for the severe handicap of being the designated healer.

I do agree that heavy armor proficiencies does not ring to well with clerics of Fharlangh, Olidammara or Ehlonna. Sometimes it's possible to trade those away with a level-headed DM.

 

[Daiymo]

Contrary to common belief the cleric would be a better class if stripped of their healing ability. Each character can do one thing per round. If you are expected to use that round to heal you are in a sense losing an opportunity to do something you'd really like to do.

If you wanted to put a damper on a class that was to good the best way to do it would be to give that class healing capabilities. Imagine a fighter with healing capabilities. It would be pretty boring to play, don't you think?

Ergo, the cleric must have lots of great abilities to make up for the severe handicap of being the designated healer.

But if you dont want to heal, and just meele, and be a religious warrior, wouldnt you be a paladin?

Seriously tho, I agree, apart from the spells that are mostly party oriented, the cleric has no class abilities apart from turning at level 1. Having armor and a weapon allows the cleric to wade in the battle in a pinch.

 

[Volaran]

I agree that the cleric does not fit the feel of most priests in fantasy fiction. It does, however fit the tradition of D&D, possibly in area of a sacred cow.

In one of the games I play in, this has been dealt with using domains. With the logic that the most warlike deities are the ones who most need armed and armored clerics, the War domain has been changed to grant proficiency in the god's weapon of choice, as well as medium and heavy armor proficiency.

The more martial clerics of deities who don't have the war domain avaliable, if they do not wish to make do with only light armors, must either take the proficiencies, or more often, take a level of fighter, sacrificing spell power to serve their god in a different way. Rules for divine magic and armor have not changed, so it is not much of a sacrifice.

Thus far, it has worked out fairly well.


Sepulchrave of story hour fame has an interesting approach to it as well, though all his clerics seem to belong to a unified religion, and thus it may not be appropriate for all campaigns.

All clerics are assumed to be warrior-priests, blessed with those powers to serve the church in a martial capacity. Paladins have similar purposes.

Most priests however, are experts with appropriate skills such as diplomacy, religion, councelling, ect. Those who take this path eventually gain powers through the Contemplative prestige class. The head of the church, always being a Contemplative of some sort.


Edit: Added info

 

[Dr. Strangemonkey]

I have always thought that the Clerics skill list and low number of points was quite inhibiting to playing the role or archetype.

I have often considered boosting the skill list and points at the expense of giving clerics limited weapons and armor ala druids.

On the other hand, I have to agree with the others that stripping down the cleric's fighting prowress would have to result in giving the cleric loads more class features. As a result I think clerics are a very good generic class, but that the coolest thing to see would be more alternate cleric classes specific to a setting.

I really liked the Shaman and Shugenja from OA.