Demon dying to fast

[Darkness]

Bothered about disposable fiends? Don't be - there are many things that you can do.

Give them more hit dice - or, as someone already pointed out, class levels.

Get more demon/devil types. In the Manual of the Planes, there are quite a few. In Monsters of Faerun, you get all 5 barbazu types and also a few demons (ghour, yochlol), tiefling types (tanarukk, fey'ri), and a half-fiend type (draegloth).
edit: Or just make some up! Also, you can easily change a fiend's appearance while leaving its stats the same (or mostly the same).

Use creatures (animals, beasts, magical beasts, aberrations, etc.) with the fiendish or half-fiend template.
A half-fiend bulette, for example, should be pretty damn scary. Especially if it has 27 HD (and therefore is of Gargantuan size) and/or a few levels in Blackguard or Frenzied Berserker (the latter requires at least a few Barbarian levels first, of course).
Or how about a tribe of half-fiend ogres - hey, if your world has lots of fiends, it's bound to happen some day, you know! Some of them should also have a few class levels, of course.
And medium- to high-level tiefling or half-fiend characters are also neat, of course. Or maybe a nice tiefling lich or vampire, perhaps?
BTW, do you have Dragon #289? If so, pack the kaiju template on one or two of these critters and watch your players quiver!

Equip your demons with magic items - especially items that only creatures of evil alignment can use (at least without penalties). Example: The Demonsblood Sword in "The Harrowing" (Dungeon Magazine #84). It causes demon fever (as described in the DMG) in everyone it hits (Fortitude save, DC 18 to avoid). It also causes this disease in its wielder unless he is a demon (if he's not a demon, he has to make the aforementioned Fortitude save every 10 rounds while holding it).
Or just use a plain old unholy axe, an intelligent weapon of evil alignment, a demon armor, or something like that - you get the idea.

If encountered in their living area, fiends probably have traps, guard creatures (or guards) and a lot of really nasty and/or blasphemous furniture. Also don't forget torturing equipment, of course.

Have fun!

 

[Ysgarran]

I say ignore the knee-jerk reaction to neutralise their abilities for that - it's not fair on the players, and a hallmark of bad DMing. Upping the opposition is fair, tailoring it specifically to neutralise their fortes isn't - subtle difference but an important one, I think...

"the ability to gain victory by changing and adapting according to the opponent is called genius" --Sun Tzu

I agree with you that the DM should not 'meta' game the situation but on the other hand there isn't any reason he should not look at the situation from the Demons/Devils point of view. Those from the lower planes have lived a long time. If they notice someone who is killing them with ease they will sit up and take notice. They would analyze the situation and do their best to kill them.

I would create a strike team of half-fiends all with class levels to take care of the situation. There isn't any reason why you couldn't give demons/devils class levels. Either way, have a 'boss' creature who sits back and analyzes how deals with what you send after them.

Don't go after the party directly, in other words demons are smart enough not to apply their strengths against the parties strengths. They will match their strengths against the parties weaknesses.

1. Create temptations. If you can't beat them, see if you can get them to join you.
2. Destroy their ability to make war. Create a party of demon thieves with the ability to disguise themselves who will attempt to steal the party blind.
3. Don't fight a losing battle. Demons know when to fight, if they can't beat the party they will start using delaying tactics and avoiding a fight until they can be sure they can beat the party:
"There are routes not to be followed, armies not to be attacked, citadels not to be besieged, territory not to be fought over" -- Sun Tzu
"Those who know when to fight and when not to fight are victorious." -- Sun Tzu
4. If these techniques don't work agains the party. Use them against those who would aid the party. If the Demons/Devils have a lot of 'social power' and/or rule nations use that power to try to isolate the party from replenishing their supplies.
5. The party probably cannot match the outsiders ability to move (Teleport w/o Error). Think of ways you could use that. Always bracket (at a decent distance) the party with demons who inform everyone that they party might come in contact with what will happen to them if they talk or interact with the party.

Looking at the 'Bastion of Lost Souls' might give you some ideas.


Ysgarran.

p.s.
If you are wondering about all the Sun Tzu quotes, I've started reading 'Warrior Politics' by Joseph Kaplin. That gave me the incentive to pull out my copy of 'The Art of War' and head to the library to get a copy of some Roman histories...

 

[daTim]

If you really want to throw them off you could try useing fallen celestials. An evil Planetar would put up quite a fight.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Just as a minor point - I believe that demons and devils normally advance "by HD", not "by level" in the book - just wanted to make that point since (unless it got changed in the MM faq) the standard rules don't allow for classed demons. WotC "Standing Stone" adventure not, uh, withstanding.

Cheers

 

[Psion]

I have has similar problems in the recenet past, so I consider this a learning experience as well.

Similar to you, I have a fairly high level party. short recap of some recent adventures, the party snuck into an enemy base camp in disguise and heard talk of a "blessed one." The blessed one turned out to Ashmede, a devil from Legions of Hell with some nasty spell like abilities and a vorpal scythe. As scary as it sounds, they got the drop on it and killed it in short order.

Later in the same adventure, they triggered a trap that summoned a nalfeshnee. They aced this supposedly frightening demon in one round.

The thing to remember is that fiends have a lot of their CR wrapped up into their magical abilities. If they never get a chance to use them, they are going to seem much weaker than the CR indicates.

So, to make a fiend live up to its CR, you should give it a chance to use its abilities. You can do this by making sure that the fiend knows the players are coming. This can esily be accomplished by judicious use of underlings such as imp/quasit spies. Then, allow the fiend to use its abilities intelligently. You may want to look at the fiend you plan to use and consider the most effective way to use them. Don't have the fiend engage in hand-to-hand combat until it has already used its magic to optimize the situation.

Fiends have low HP for their CR. However, most powerful fiends have teleport without error, and many have fast healing or regeneration. A fiend would logically teleport out at the first sign of trouble and get hp back and return to the fray before their enemy can recover.

In the above example, the party took off on an airship, leaving behind the corpse of the Ashmede. A cleric cast revive outsider on it. This time it was aware of the party and set out for vengeance. It approached with its improved invisibility on and launched effects like chain lightning and horrid wilting before it closed. That encounter was quite a bit more challenging for the party.

As others have said, adding class levels and HD are also ways to make the creature a little more challenging. But that should be your second step. The first step is using what you already have.

 

[drnuncheon]

Just as a minor point - I believe that demons and devils normally advance "by HD", not "by level" in the book - just wanted to make that point since (unless it got changed in the MM faq) the standard rules don't allow for classed demons. WotC "Standing Stone" adventure not, uh, withstanding.

Cheers

Actually the advancement by HD does not necessarily mean that they can't get class levels. There's an example of a unicorn (also has advancement by HD) with class levels discussed in the DMG.

Creatures who only advance by class levels are the ones that say 'advancement by class'...but they are not the only ones who can advance by class. See the difference?

J

 

[Psion]

Just as a minor point - I believe that demons and devils normally advance "by HD", not "by level" in the book - just wanted to make that point since (unless it got changed in the MM faq) the standard rules don't allow for classed demons.

Incorrect. Yes, their normal advancement is by HD. However, the section on monster characters in the DMG says that creatures that advance by HD can also advance by class.

This approach is taken in many of the adventure path modules. For example, there is a vrock bard, a wight assassin, and a mephit assassin that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[JacktheRabbit]

When using Demons make sure to account for their fighting style. Demons love to use mass numbers in a chaotic melee to just overrun their foes. If you normally would throw 3 CR12 foes at them instead try on ocassion to throw 10-15 CR6 Demons at them.

That is a challenge.

As for devils they are a bit harder. Devils are always potrayed at being very organized and efficient in battle. That is how they are able to compete with demons that often outnumber them 100 to 1. So for Devils you need to be very careful with your tactics and use them well. Read up on Old Ones story hour to get some ideas on good use of tactics to make a foe more dangerous.

 

[Vuron]

Use lots of cannonfodder

20+ Dretches
2 Hezrou
1 or 2 Half-Fiend Sorcerors lvl 6

The dretches move into close combat seeking to tie up melee specialists and prevent tumblers from getting to the hezrou.

Using a mix of thier darkness and gating abilities they summon more assistance and form a living wall. The Hezrou initially use thier gate ability to bring in additional dretches to shore up the defenses. The Sorcerors cast area effect spells like fireball or lightning bolt in the midst of the dretches as they are disposable cannonfodder.

Using their ability to teleport without error the hezrou teleport in and out of melee with the spellcasters hopefully using improved grab to grapple then teleport away from the party. If the dretch wall gets too thin the hezrou teleport away.

 

[Soldarin]

Incidentally, advancing by class when advancement by HD is stated by the MM is a privilege for PC monsters. Of course, you can extend those rules to NPCs (make sure to also make them elite characters then, ie 4d6 drop lowest for ability scores, first HD full), but the standard rules do not say so.
The DMG part quoted is about monster PCs.