Demon dying to fast

[Psion]

Incidentally, advancing by class when advancement by HD is stated by the MM is a privilege for PC monsters. Of course, you can extend those rules to NPCs (make sure to also make them elite characters then, ie 4d6 drop lowest for ability scores, first HD full), but the standard rules do not say so.
The DMG part quoted is about monster PCs.

I am not sure how close it is to the monster section, but there is also mention elsewhere in that chapter about using the PC rules for "special" NPCs.

And WotC does it in the modules.

And if that's not justification enough for you, there is always rule 0. But I was sort of avoiding that, because lots of people act like once rule zero is mentioned, anything that follows has no bearing.

But really people, trust me: No matter how technically correct you think it is, adding class levels to fiends makes them more interesting and challenging.

 

[Henry]

I am not sure how close it is to the monster section, but there is also mention elsewhere in that chapter about using the PC rules for "special" NPCs.

And WotC does it in the modules.

And if that's not justification enough for you, there is always rule 0. But I was sort of avoiding that, because lots of people act like once rule zero is mentioned, anything that follows has no bearing.

But really people, trust me: No matter how technically correct you think it is, adding class levels to fiends makes them more interesting and challenging.

If you want to scare a party, put them in a fight with a a few dozen 2 to 3 hit dice creatures that are resistant to most elements. THAT will unnerve a party, unless they are 15th to 20th level. Why? Sheer numbers of attacks. Player Characters do this all the time. If one side has a horde of lower level enemies against one high-level one, the horde always wins. So just make sure you're the one with the horde.

One thing so many people forget about demons: Coming from the Abyss (or wherever the come from in your cosmology), they are not necessarily in one set form. Old Dragon Magazines used to have random tables to generate the features, appendages, hit dice, attacks and damage, etc. etc. etc. of random Demons. Why subject your PC's to an old enemy when you can face them with dozens of demons, no two of which look alike? You can give them the SAME stats, but the players don't need to know that. They will likely treat each type as a different demon. And THAT is worth the fun a player has when faced with the unknown.

Also, don't forget vivid description. Paint a very real mental picture of dozens of large, animalistic, slavering, smelly, puke-colored, dog-headed, fish-eyed, scaled, feathered, crowing terrors rushing directly at you, and see if the players take notice more. Describe to them every vivid detail - and when their mass-damage elemental spells have little effect on them, watch them switch tactics, and later tell you how much fun the encounter was.

When a ball-game is in a rut, the Coach puts in another pitcher to shake things up a bit. You can do the same. When the "players" realize you, "their coach" are not making wrote plays out of the "handbooks", they look at you with a new respect.

 

[Darkness]

One thing so many people forget about demons: Coming from the Abyss (or wherever the come from in your cosmology), they are not necessarily in one set form. Old Dragon Magazines used to have random tables to generate the features, appendages, hit dice, attacks and damage, etc. etc. etc. of random Demons. Why subject your PC's to an old enemy when you can face them with dozens of demons, no two of which look alike? You can give them the SAME stats, but the players don't need to know that. They will likely treat each type as a different demon. And THAT is worth the fun a player has when faced with the unknown.

Do you know approximately how old these Dragon mags might be? I have the CD collection and would like to look this up...

 

[Psion]

One thing so many people forget about demons: Coming from the Abyss (or wherever the come from in your cosmology), they are not necessarily in one set form. Old Dragon Magazines used to have random tables to generate the features, appendages, hit dice, attacks and damage, etc. etc. etc. of random Demons.

Actually, I beleive those where the ones that eventually made it into the 1e DMG, which I used from time-to-time back in the day. I've given serious thought into converting those or creating a new version thereof for 3e.

 

[Henry]

Do you know approximately how old these Dragon mags might be? I have the CD collection and would like to look this up...

I had forgotten that they were in the 1st ed. DMG, but I DO know they appeared in (I think) Best of Dragon #1 or #2, so we are talking within either the Stategic Review sections, or in the first ten or twenty issues of Dragon...

 

[Vuron]

The hellbound boxed set also had a variety of interesting variations on some of the standard tanari and baatezu. I can't remember did the regenerating devils Nupperibo sp? get detailed in Manual of the Planes.

Another good source for alternate descriptions would be the hordlings from 1e MM2.

One thing I personally added to the demons is the devil ability to see in darkness which makes the darkness deeper darkness abilities quite nice.

For the devils use thier superior intelligence and organizational abilities to your advantage. 6 Hamatulas with thier ability to grapple quite nastily can often rip through a party.

Remember to stock up with associated fiendish creatures like bodaks and fiendish dire creatures. A pack of fiendish dire wolves led by handful of barbazu can be quite intimidating.

 

[Erik Mona]

Well, Armies of the Abyss should be out next week, so I highly recommend buying that and using it against (ahem, for) your players. Lots of stuff in there that they've never heard of, including a completely new demonic subrace (the qlippoth) who have different abilities and immunities.

Can your party fly? Consider using a bunch of flying demons who can rain down spells from a distance. Also consider more complicated stories, such as an innocent child who has been possessed by a demon and who is spreading chaos and destruction (the more subtle, the better). They ought to think twice before tossing a fireball at a little kid.

Have you played with illusion, much? Some demons have excellent illusory powers that can be used to cause all kinds of trouble. The most obvious tactic, in a combat-heavy game, is to have the demons create images of themselves, which are then battered by the first, most powerful magic your party's got. Then, after the party's resources have been depleted, the real beasts step from the shadows. It's an old trick, but a fun one (if used sparingly).

It sounds to me like your biggest problem is setting up your party against a single opponent. Consider mixing up your badguys a little more, which gives your spellcasters more targets and will draw out the encounter even longer.

But, as I said above, check out Armies of the Abyss. I have supreme confidence in its author.

--Erik Mona
Author, Armies of the Abyss

 

[Darkness]

I had forgotten that they were in the 1st ed. DMG, but I DO know they appeared in (I think) Best of Dragon #1 or #2, so we are talking within either the Stategic Review sections, or in the first ten or twenty issues of Dragon...

Thanks much, Henry!
I've now found an article of this kind in Dragon #13, but that one is more about unique powers. It's a different one, right?

 

[Squire James]

One of my favorite tactics for "boss demons" is simply to use the stats of an appropriately powerful dragon, except change its appearance and physical attacks to match the desired demon. The "breath weapon" can stay an actual breath weapon, or become some sort of spell-like ability that does the same thing.

Another tactic I've seen used for "bosses" is to simply multiply their HP by 5 or 10. It is a fairly good way to make a "boss" live long enough to do something without increasing its power beyond the PC's capabilities. Be sure to give more XP for the encounter too... I'd add +2 EL for HPx5 or +4 EL for HPx10.

The 2 tactics should not be used together... demonic dragons with thousands of HP are a bit much!

 

[Wolfspider]

The 2 tactics should not be used together... demonic dragons with thousands of HP are a bit much!

Nah, I don't think so.