Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

Psion

Adventurer
Sammael said:
This is irrelevant. I haven't played in an epic game yet and I don't think demon lords should be killable at level 20. Neither do my players. What matters to us the most is verisimilitude.

If you never play epic games, but don't think demon lords should be killable at level 20, the stats are irrelevant to you. They provided stats that people who want stats will actually use.

Of course, we've been over this ground before. This discussion has been had in the other thread and probably not what Sep was after when he started this thread. Repeating the same point here isn't going to provide any deeper insight.
 

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Sammael

Adventurer
Psion said:
If you never play epic games, but don't think demon lords should be killable at level 20, the stats are irrelevant to you.
Uh... I didn't say that I'm not going to play epic in the future. May I, mister Psion, ser?

They provided stats that people who want stats will actually use.
This poll is trying to determine what type of stats, if any, people really want. For instance, you'll note that I want CR 20+ stats for avatars, and would find them useful.

EDIT: And this is my last comment for a while, I promise. It was just as easy to write that the CR 20-25 demon lord stats are those of their avatars, and then include a footnote that states "if your games are non-epic, feel free to use these stats as those of actual demon lords instead of their avatars." Instead, designers and developers opted to turn the Multiverse on its head and present these stats as actual demon lord stats.
 
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I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of people who haven't posted to the other thread, as well. :)

I tried to post a poll, but unfortunately my attempts to craft it without bias took too long and it timed out on me. (If any mods feel like adding one, the options were: 1) Statless uber-evils; 2)CR 50+, a la Dicefreaks; 3)CR 35-50, tougher than Demonomicon or BoVD; 4)CR 25-35, Demonomicon and BoVD got it about right; 5)CR 20-25, the new stats in Fiendish Codex I).

An interesting point raised by Gold Roger and Sammael - should epic levels be a core assumption? They're in the SRD, after all.

As an aside, I thought that Eberron shied away from epic-level stuff ("lords of dust?"). Will there be an inevitable power creep in that campaign world, I wonder?
 
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smootrk

First Post
I havn't seen the material, but scalable seems to be the best approach in my mind. Allows for folks to use them when & however they like, according to their tastes.
 

Psion

Adventurer
Sammael said:
Uh... I didn't say that I'm not going to play epic in the future. May I, mister Psion, ser?

That "you" was a heap "you". If it help, replace the word "someone". I was making no assertion about what you do beyond what you tell me, and wasn't guessing what you will do.

This poll is trying to determine what type of stats, if any, people really want. For instance, you'll note that I want CR 20+ stats for avatars, and would find them useful.

Fair enough, but I wasn't responding to your post about what levels you run things. I was responding to you telling me that it's irrelevant that they researched the levels people play out. I was explaining why it's not irrelevant.
 


Tsillanabor

First Post
For the first time in over 20 years of playing I feel that the game can support epic-level play. For that reason I want Demon Lords at a high CR-35-50 range, with manifestations at about the BoVD range.
 

Gold Roger

First Post
Sammael said:
Epic levels are a built-in core assumption for most settings (Greyhawk and FR being the most prominent) and have always been there (albeit they weren't called "epic" or another fancy name). Even Eberron has epic-level Lords of Dust (see recent Dragon magazine) despite its overall lower-level NPCs. Now, if three core worlds support epic play, I think that we can safely say the epic play is not really optional (as far as official materials go).

DMs are, of course, free to set the cap as low (or as high) as they desire. I am in favor of natural caps - keep playing as long as the game is fun.

Greyhawk is, outside of piazo's magazines perhaps, which, while officaial, don't define the baselines or core assumptions of the game, a dead setting, in the sense that it no longer baseline for the standarts of D&D.

FR has always been the high power setting, with 3rd edition more than ever. You'll find an awfull lot of people that agree that NPC's such as Elminster are cheesy for them and it's also notable that all those PC's and their role in the world would still work where they level 17-20. Netheril would really be the only thing that wouldn't work without epic rules and that only because epic rules, in part, have been made to accomodate it. It's also hard to deny that FR is in any way still the base setting for D&D.

For the Lords of Dust, well, they are again from dragon, not wotc. And the Delkyr are all CR 20+. Not exactly right to accomodate epic levels, but just right to be the "final monster" to a campaign that ends at lvl 20. You could say that written up epic challenges for eberron doesn't exactly proves that eberron supports epic level play, but instead epic level play in it has to be supported from an outside source to even be viable.


Of course, I never even denied that epic level play currently is part of the core assumptions, just that it shouldn't be. With the advent of 3rd edition D&D was to be build in a modular way that is founded on one set of core assumptions found in the core rulebooks.

That these core assumptions could be broken up by the existance of an epic ruleset outside of the core rules that now has to be taken into consideration with every new release defeats that whole concept to me.


As a small aside, looking over the whole of my planescape collection about everything caps around level 20. Oh, and while I'm not exactly a grandmaster of evaluating 2nd ed power levels and they where certainly controversial in their time as well, the stats of Grazzt and Pazurael seem about right for a 20th level party as well. Since this is a discussion relating to the same subjects planescape took on and you brought up setting I thought it worth mentioning.
 

paradox42

First Post
Sepulchrave II said:
I'd be interested in hearing the opinions of people who haven't posted to the other thread, as well. :)
I stayed out of that one when it became clear where the argument was headed and that it was getting ugly. Besides, several other posters were already echoing my thoughts, so no need to post.

Sepulchrave II said:
I tried to post a poll, but unfortunately my attempts to craft it without bias took too long and it timed out on me. (If any mods feel like adding one, the options were: 1) Statless uber-evils; 2)CR 50+, a la Dicefreaks; 3)CR 35-50, tougher than Demonomicon or BoVD; 4)CR 25-35, Demonomicon and BoVD got it about right; 5)CR 20-25, the new stats in Fiendish Codex I).
I was wondering why you didn't do that! It seemed an obvious thing to do with the thread title. Mods, please do consider adding a poll to this discussion. For the record, I'd vote option 2. Wimpy CR 20-25 stats are just about useless to me already; IMO even the high avatars should be the entities given in BoVD. These beings control whole planes, CRs below 25 just aren't credible.

Sepulchrave II said:
An interesting point raised by Gold Roger and Sammael - should epic levels be a core assumption? They're in the SRD, after all.
Seperate poll! :) My answer is, "Yes, they should." People who don't want the game to go that high don't have to play that high. In fact, plenty of people end their games before level 15 now, even with the "core assumption" being a game ending at 20. So there's no rational reason not to just assume Epic rules are core and go with it, now that the rules actually do exist (and as Sep pointed out, are even in the SRD). Keeping them separate is really just a holdover from the days in 3.0 before the ELH existed.

Sepulchrave II said:
As an aside, I thought that Eberron shied away from epic-level stuff ("lords of dust?"). Will there be an inevitable power creep in that campaign world, I wonder?
Most likely- eventually. Give it a few years, and potentially wait for more novels and a putative 4th Edition of the game, and I think you'll see Eberron develop higher-level NPCs in its metaplot and world assumptions. It's a young world, give it time to grow. :)
 

GreyShadow

Explorer
I'd want my Demon Lords to be able to take out 4 Balors without breaking a sweat. A second lot of 4 straight after the first battle to be not quite so one sided, but still a win for the Demon Lord.

Where does that put them in the CR range? I don't know.
 

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