Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[NexH]

I think it depends on the cosmology of the campaign:

If you think each world has its own cosmology (IIRC this is the assumption in the Manual of the Planes), then the stats don't matter much since you can just say those are for an alternative cosmology.
If you have a myriad of different worlds sharing the same cosmology (Lords of Madness is the only 3rd edition product that I remember has this campaign view) then higher level stats for the demon lords are much more adequate to justify their continued existence.

I prefer demond lords capable of fighting gods, in the Dicefreaks's range.

 

[Nifft]

I'd want my Demon Lords to be able to take out 4 Balors without breaking a sweat. A second lot of 4 straight after the first battle to be not quite so one sided, but still a win for the Demon Lord.

Yeah. IMHO the yardstick should be two fully-advanced Balors, plus two Mariliths, plus an army of lesser demons.

Alternately, two fully advanced Solars, plus related Celestials.

-- N

 

[delericho]

I felt the BoVD stats were about right. I also think that, having established that sort of power level as precedent, they should have stuck to it.

That said, stats for anything above CR 25 or so are useless to me. If it cannot be reasonably faced by a group of 20th level PCs, I'll never use it.

 

[Matafuego]

I'd vote option 2 as well.
I love what Dicefreaks did with Gates of Hell (I'd say it's one hell of a book but I fear the booing coming straight at me for the awful pun...) and I say that someone described as "being undisputed supreme ruler of hell, opposing the actions of powerful celestials and good-aligned deities" can't be anything short than CR 50+...

 

[Shemeska]

CR 25-40 avatars, but the archfiends themselves being wholly without stats.

If they absolutely must have stats, those stats must be equivalent to or situationally better than those of deities. Yugoloths carved Khin-Oin from the spine of a deity they killed, they also forced true deities out of active involvement in the Blood War, Prince Levistus is shrinking the size of Set's deific domain in a protracted war, and Asmodeus forced Gruumsh and Maglubiyet out of Avernus and into Acheron.

But no... God forbid we make them higher than a CR 2X because then billy and bobby and suzy won't be able to kill them and take their stuff when they have 20th level PCs. God forbid we have stats that match the flavor text and lore. God forbid we have cosmological consistency as any sort of primary design criteria.

Pinning Archfiends at CR 19-22 or so, barely above the level of a Balor, intentionally watering them down so people can kill them easily is sad. If there's no acknowledgement that the stats are in fact intentionally watered down, or that such beings stats at that level don't accurately represent beings who are physical manifestations of their own alignments, who in many cases predate the deities, whose will warps and defines entire infinite stretches of reality, and provide mention of how to handle such rather than just having them as barely above balors with a few hit dice ... then I'm sorry but someone dropped the ball during development or editing and they've set themselves up as a metaphorical fig tree in need of a dose of withering.

When the primary, and widespread, criticism of the BoVD in that it made its archfiends too weak for the position they occupy and what they're defined as, doesn't appear to have even been a major concern, and even more so they went further in that direction, there's a serious disconnect here.

At least the stats don't represent a majority of the book, but just a small portion of it. The remainder of the book should be well written, so I have that as solace, and I still have Faces of Evil when all is said and done.

 

[The Serge]

An interesting point raised by Gold Roger and Sammael - should epic levels be a core assumption? They're in the SRD, after all.

Not only are they in the SRD, they're also assumed in the MM since 3.0 and in the DMG since 3.5. Dragons and solars have always existed beyond the 20 CR realm and the current DMG offers some support for epic rules.

I keep on hearing folks make reference to WotC conducting market research on epic games and their evaluation revealing that there's not enough support for it. I wonder how broad this research was and, more importantly, if the lack of interest is more based upon a lack of understanding/exposure to epic play and the possibilities therein or (as seems to be the assumption) a genuine lack of interest. There is no hardcopy support for epic play anywhere save WotC and WotC has done a pretty poor job with their epic line, limiting it to web enhancements and half-hearted attempts in books like BoVD and BoED (and now the FCs). Aside from a few websites (Dicefreaks, Immortal Handbook, and a few others), there's no one really showing how well epic campaigns can work, now there should be a seamless transition from core to epic to divine rules, and how many different approaches are available. And, since these websites aren't "official," folks have a tendancy of regarding them as not worthy of attention.

For me (and Dicefreaks by extension), the problem is a lack of cosmological sense with no epic demon princes (not necessarily lords). Although James Jacobs did a fantastic job on the previously referenced thread describing how this could work even using the anemic stats pending for FCI, I think that the ability to create a smooth transition and offering quality support for this level of game play is possible. And really, if one assumes that the stats in FCI are for aspects/avatars (which they apparently are not), why not have stats for the aspects and stats for the real thing, thereby supporting both sides of the equation? This was done (poorly, but nevertheless) with DDG, afterall.

 

[Tharen the Damned]

Hmm, if I leave apart the Forgotten Realms NPCs Level inconsistencies (there is a Dracolich with CR 47 or so somewhere in Toril. He can take on Demogorgon, Grazzt and Orcus without breaking into sweat) I have to think about the Demons in the MMs and the Named Demons.
I mean Orcus rules as much through his cunning as through his power and ability to cow other Demons. This as partly due to his rod but even without his rod he has to have more personal power than most other Demons.
I mean the abyss is endless and has endless resources of Demons. There are a lot of big bad balors around. But so far Grazzt and Orcus are still on their Thrones (or back again).
It is ok for me, if the PCs kill the avatar of a Demonlord. But the real thing should be godlike on his plane and in his lair.
If Dmogorgon is travelling to the prime and the PCs happen to kill his Avatar he will be unable to travel there for 100years or so.
IMO this is a fitting end for a campaign. The PCs killed the Avatar/Aspect and saved the Prime but they and their children and childrens children and ..(you get it) made an enemy of the Demonlord.

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

Thank you Shemmy! Looks like you said what I felt before I even got the chance. Though I'm somewhere between you and dicefreaks on the power level thing. Especially with the cosmic entity template idea that makes them equivalent to or greater than deities. So I figure they should have stats for in case it comes up they should match the flavor. Otherwise why don't the gods just wipe them out and take their layer? Over at Dicefreaks one of their mods showed how using the RAW for it Kurtlemak could b**ch-slap Asmodeus around for eleven rounds then give his spear to a first level kobold and have it kill the Lord of the Nine Hells. And that just disgusts me as an example of completely ill-thought out design. It should all be modular but each piece is supposed to actually work in conjunction with all the others.

 

[Shemeska]

Thank you Shemmy! Looks like you said what I felt before I even got the chance.

I'm more interested in the flavor aspect of it all, much less so the numbers or the tactical aspect of it. Above a certain point, I see no use in overt stats, both because the beings in question can't be accurately defined by the rules at that level, and also because the system itself falls apart into math homework once the sheer amount of numbers come into play. All respect to someone that wants to do that, if that's their thing, but a 6000 HD monster is going to be a nightmare to handle the numbers for. If I'm going to fight things that powerful, I'm going to gloss over stats or not use them at all both because of inability to quantify them and the nightmare of the system overwhelming me with +'s.

Thus, give me avatars that can be honest threats to very powerful PCs. But if a PC wanders into a layer of the Abyss and up to the steps of Pale Night's castle of bone, they shouldn't roll for initiative and fight Pale Night sitting around somewhere. No. Abandon the mundane notions of orcs sitting in 5x10 rooms with a pile of treasure. No. The fabric of reality itself if going to distort around them, they'll be toyed with, and they're going to quickly realize that they're not so much fighting a single being called Pale Night, they're picking a fight with that entire layer of the Abyss itself, molded and defined by the Abyssal Lord in question who for all intents and purposes -is- her layer of the Abyss, not just the biggest monster on that layer.

How do you fight something that can't be defined, nailed down, or accurately quantified?

How do you kill a concept?

Use avatars or projections if you want them as big monsters serving as end bosses for typical campaigns, that works out well without twisting around and mangling them. If you want to fight the archfiend themselves, you need to approach it differently than something mundane with just a lot of hit dice, because Dorothy, you're no longer in Kansas.

 

[Nifft]

How do you fight something that can't be defined, nailed down, or accurately quantified?

How is it fighting me? Grab those parts and nail them to a wall... er, demi-plane.

How do you kill a concept?

If a concept can reach out and personally try to kill me, I reserve the right to kill it right back.

... but the snarky (and therefore correct) answer is: you put out low-quality sequal that ride on the coat tails of the original until you've exhausted your fan base. Then the concept is dead.

-- N