Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[Knight Otu]

I think it is a good idea to have the baseline stats be created in a way that the Demon Lords could be challengeable 'in a vacuum*' by a group that has no desire to advance beyond level 20. In theory (according to the DMG), this includes CRs from 20 to 27.
Flavor-wise, a Demon Lord (or any kind of Planar Ruler, really) should have no problems controlling his typical subjects. That may be from pure flavor, including brains ("he is the only thing that unites us against the demons next door"), physical might ("DR or not, I'll squish you puny creature into a bloody pulp"), immunity against his subjects' attacks ("sorry, Mr. Balor, but Juiblex has no head to be vorpalled off"), or a special ability allowing that control (l"ook deep into my eyes"). It should be noted, though, that creatures like balors and mariliths are not necessarily typical subjects, and not every demon lord will have such powerful demons under his control. Those demon lords might actually be weaker than these demons, holding off attacks by their rivals who do in other ways.

* Obviously, they don't exist in a vacuum, they exist in a plane full of demons, several of which are loyal to them. Regardless of whether Demogorgon is CR 30, 23, or 70, in a well-played game, one doesn't simply walk up to him and rolls initiative.

 

[diaglo]

for me at least, a creature that gives other demons nightmares is something to be reckon with...

that said, i don't think they should have stats. i also believe in the sense of d02 they should have divine ranks.

 

[The Serge]

Well, they probably would get it through their heads if everyone's opinion was just like yours. As it is, they are trying to make the product useful to as many people as possible. As much as you or others on this thread dislike the thought of Bobby and Susie killing some Demon Lord and taking it's stuff at 20th level, other people do play like that. And who are you to judge how they have their fun?

What's good for the goose is good for the gander. By and large, WotC has not made a good faith effort in offering decent support for epic or divine play. Their attempts have been generally poor. They have taken one side of the argument by-and-large and have not made their product especially useful to one large segment. Now, I suppose there could be change coming in that they plan on offering some kind of support for advancing their anemic demon lords and demon princes, but given what we've seen thus far, I'm not certain that this will really offer much...

Flavor-wise, a Demon Lord (or any kind of Planar Ruler, really) should have no problems controlling his typical subjects. That may be from pure flavor....

Flavor and mechanics should work hand-in-hand. The mechanics are just as important as the flavor as this is a role-playing game. I think this is one of the greatest elements in which most gamers miss out. If this was more of a strict storytelling game, the need for internal balance with Skills, Feats, Classes, and so forth would never plays such a prominent role. It's the reason why we have Diplomacy and Bluff and Sense Motive checks and define abilities.

 

[Knight Otu]

Flavor and mechanics should work hand-in-hand.

Well, yes. That point may have been a bit misnamed. Part of what I meant was basically to use the Lord's mental stats as well as possible - crafting alliances that make him virtually untouchable, making promises to other demons ("follow me, and you'll wreak greater havoc than you could alone"), using his resources to award 'loyal' behaviour - basically everything that a mortal ruler would do as well to stay in power.

 

[The Serge]

At the risk of taking this discussion into an unintended direction, what you're suggesting sounds more like a diabolical or perhaps NE attitude. The Abyss is about physical power and the ability to use said power to cow lackeys and overcome adversaries in most situations.

 

[Knight Otu]

I never intended those means to be the only ways of control, as you can see in my previous post. Also I tried to view the problem as broad as possible, including other kinds of planar rulers, not just Demon Lords (since those would certainly follow the same design criteria).

 

[Kain Darkwind]

Well, they probably would get it through their heads if everyone's opinion was just like yours. As it is, they are trying to make the product useful to as many people as possible. As much as you or others on this thread dislike the thought of Bobby and Susie killing some Demon Lord and taking it's stuff at 20th level, other people do play like that. And who are you to judge how they have their fun?

For my games, I intend to make the Demon Lords significantly stronger than they are in HotA. But if the stats that they have now make the book appeal to a larger group and they sell more copies, I won't begrudge them that and I will happily look forward to more books that money allows them to put out.

I don't judge play styles, and I don't care for you suggesting that I do. I am judging a design style, catering to a particular play style and not the others. And from a design perspective, it is stupidity to make a specific NPC weaker so that some people can fight them. It is a poor, short sighted concept. I don't mind hack and slashers, I don't mind intensive role play, I don't mind those who stop their campaigns at 20th level and those that extend on to 100th level. I'm not debating the merits of a singular playstyle.

But if Elminster is 35th level, he's 35th level. I'm not going to lower him for my campaign because the PCs can't beat him. I'm not going to raise him for my campaign because the PCs can beat him. Unless the man gains some levels (and this could be throughout the campaign) he is 35th level. I'm not obligated to change it around because of different play styles.

I'm sort of in Shemeska's camp, although I do believe such things as 'concepts' can be killed. I believe gods can die, and mythology agrees with me. I believe cosmic entities such as demon princes can die, and Orcus agrees with me.

Obviously, not everyone does, hence this whole argument.

I'm not sure that your responding to anything relevant. Did I suggest that everyone agrees with me? I was qualifying my support of Shemeska's ideas with my exceptions to those of hers.

If "lower level CRs are needed because they are more useful to the general population of DnD", then why isn't Elminster a 20th level wizard?

Because Elminster is from FR and the FC book is a generic book. Entirely different worlds there.

Right. Crap excuse number 1. We have a specific NPC. That doesn't change if you are in Eberron, Forgotten Realms or regular old DnD. If you are speaking with an NPC, say the king of some country, does his level change throughout that conversation? If a 20th level party walks into his castle, and he was only 7th level before, should he jump up to 25th? Generic DnD, of course.

The thought that "FC is generic" is not an excuse for poor design concepts.

Now, I work with Dicefreaks (I'm the mod who showed Kurtlemak giving his spear to a 1st level kobold to wack Asmodeus with) and I agree with a high level of power for demon princes and lords. I also have my own personal thread there where I've done my images of their stats....Demogorgon is 70HD, Asmodeus is 54HD, and you can work your way down from there. I believe the gods are killable, I believe the cosmic entities are killable, but I sure as hell don't think it should be simple.

Now see, I'd be even more disappointed if we got DC style stats for these guys, because they'd be absolutely useless to me. I'm not going to run a long Epic level game because, as written, the Epic Level rules just don't work for me. Give me a sliding scale on making these guys as powerful as I want them to be, don't give me massively powerful stats that I'm never going to use.

I'll assume you meant DF not DC. And I'll point out again, these are specifc entities. Not creatures but CHARACTERS. They don't deserve to have a drop in power because your campaign wants to beat them at 16th level. And if you think they do, why don't you hold the same opinion of Zeus? Thor? The tarrasque? When someone can give me a solid reason for a CR 5 tarrasque, I'll listen to reasons for CR 19 demon lords.

I'm not saying you need the stats that DF has. But I am saying you need to keep a proper scale. If you have balors, which are powerful, sub-demon lord status, demons at CR 20, it stands to reason that the minimum CR of a demon lord would be CR 21. As in, more powerful than the typical demons. In the Abyss however, you have demons that are potentially CR 41. (60 HD balor) At double advancement, a marilith is CR 26, a balor is CR 30. Something is VERY wrong with having demon lords under those levels.

Again, these are specific NPCs. The 'needs of your game' don't apply. Unless you are also petitioning for a Hextor, Tiamat and Hercules that your players can beat too?

 

[Mirtek]

A demonlord needs to be strong enough to be able to defend the place he is supposed to take in the D&D multiverse.

If Demogorgon is the billions of years old most powerfull ruler in the Abyss, he has to be stronger than puny great gold wyrm who is merely 1,200 years old.

 

[Telesk]

I like to play Bards, in fact, I like to play anemic, anorexic, halfling Bards. By the way, I like to melee in combat and jig dance. Now when I get to 3rd level and can't do sqaut in melee against an Owlbear should the next source book fix this problem?

Or what if I take leaf from the Character Optimization boards and create a character that by level 13 or something can cast epic spells, and deal uber damage? Should the next book published by wizards of the coast make it to where no one can officially do this anymore...the answer IMO is no they should not.

DnD is about custimization of your mechanical stats to fit a concept, the persona of your character or NpC, your "flavor" if you will. The rules should not bend to the morbidly weak nor the strong. The game should find a balance point in the background for Demon Lords, Hellish Generals and the big baddy's of Celestia. What is the balance from 1st edition, 2nd edition, and 3rd edition? Is it near level 20 CR, or is it much farther then that?

Many Demon Lords have RL historical roots, where they went toe to toe with gods. And god's in 3rd edition have estimated CR ranges in the low thirties to the high sixties, and Planar Lords should reflect in their statistics that they have held their thrones from over 3 editions of the game, and countless novels. I support a CR spread range equal to that of the Deity range, qausi-greater god equivalency, and in some cases they should go beyond this.

But on the other hand mortals in fiction and mythology have time and time again beaten back these beings. Some times fighters even do this, though with the class as it is I have a hard time seeing how this is done. But with epic levels, that extra section of the SRD, these feats of legend can happen. The game should better incorperate both facets of the game into a seamless transition from pre-epic to epic.

But this is just my two cents.

 

[Pants]

Right. Crap excuse number 1. We have a specific NPC. That doesn't change if you are in Eberron, Forgotten Realms or regular old DnD.

What's to say that the Demon Lord's don't have better stats in FR... oh wait, Champions of Darkness or whatever kinda nuked that idea... Well, never said they didn't screw stuff up...

However, the powerlevel of certain things changes depending upon the campaign. In one campaign, the mortal power level may scale off at around 18th level, while in another it may go as high as 40th. Eberron is a pretty low powered world. Many of the 'high level NPC's' taper off around 20th level (and one of those 20th level folks is a sentient tree.)

Then there's FR, with it's multitudes of high level folks running around killing 16th level kobolds. Obviously, the power level is different here. FR also has meddling gods, while Eberron has gods... that don't interfere with the daily lives of mortals. That throws another wrench into the mix.

Obviously, creatures that may not be appropriate power-level wise might fit into Eberron no problem, while creatures that have an appropriate power-level for Eberron may be ridiculously weak.

I'll assume you meant DF not DC.

Sorry, my bad.

And I'll point out again, these are specifc entities. Not creatures but CHARACTERS. They don't deserve to have a drop in power because your campaign wants to beat them at 16th level.

IF I want them to, they will be beatable at 16th level. It's my campaign. Obviously, not everyone wants that, which is why they have a base level of power with which you can advance them from.

And if you think they do, why don't you hold the same opinion of Zeus? Thor? The tarrasque?

Maybe I do. Have you asked my opinion on them?

I'm not saying you need the stats that DF has. But I am saying you need to keep a proper scale.

A proper scale depending upon the campaign. Who's to say that I use the D&D stats? Who's to say that I don't weaken the gods too? Who's to say that I consider level 20 to be the epitome of mortal ability and progress further is impossible?

If you have balors, which are powerful, sub-demon lord status, demons at CR 20, it stands to reason that the minimum CR of a demon lord would be CR 21. As in, more powerful than the typical demons. In the Abyss however, you have demons that are potentially CR 41. (60 HD balor) At double advancement, a marilith is CR 26, a balor is CR 30. Something is VERY wrong with having demon lords under those levels.

Which is why I like the scalable demon lord idea. Scale them to your convenience.

Unless you are also petitioning for a Hextor, Tiamat and Hercules that your players can beat too?

What's wrong with that?