Demon Lords and Princes: How *Bad* Should They Be?

[coyote6]

Please don't whine and snivel when I make generalized comments or suggestions in the form of a statement. It is immature and petty.

<shrug> It wasn't phrased as a suggestion, IMO, and didn't seem very generalized, as it was in reply to my comment. I wasn't making generalized comments; I was responding to Sep's question *for my campaigns*, which is all I can do.

(FWIW, generally speaking, IMO, a plain balor isn't a terrific "final boss" for a party of 20th level PCs; a balor's only CR 20, so 4 level 20 PCs should be able to take out a balor without breaking too much of a sweat (20-25% of their resources, IIRC). If one could arrange to wear the PCs down a bit via previous encounters, it could work; but that can be tricky to arrange. For example, my group seems to be a bit on the conservative side in terms of when they decide to rest -- they usually don't go until they're completely out of resources (since that would leave them highly vulnerable to unexpected attacks). Also, high level PCs could have ways to refresh quickly (planes where time passes at different rates than the Prime/Abyss/wherever, wishes, etc).)

 

[coyote6]

Can we establish a consensus that an Abyssal Prince should be at least CR 27, then? Even among the "epic/divine creatures are useless" crowd?

A consensus? On the Internet? It's un-possible!

For my (hypothetical) campaign ending with the PCs casting down a big bad Abyssal lord, I think I would want whatever demon lord it was to be CR 24-27, I think.

Note that if the PCs were fighting Jubilex, Pazuzu, Socothbenoth, or whoever, that would imply that other demon lords known to be more powerful (e.g., Demogorgon, Orcus) would be even more powerful.

(Note also that I'm saying that I expect that for one campaign, Orcus would have a higher CR than he might have in another campaign I run. Those campaigns might be in the same setting, even; but I don't expect the absolute power of an demon lord to be the same. They, like the nature & power of the gods, will vary according to the needs of that particular game.)

 

[Glyfair]

This is irrelevant. I haven't played in an epic game yet and I don't think demon lords should be killable at level 20. Neither do my players. What matters to us the most is verisimilitude.

IIRC, it's been said that their plane eventually reforms these Demon Lords.

While my preference would vary from campaign to campaign, I think with the "standard D&D assumptions" I'd like my 20th level party to be able to kill a Demon Lord at the culmination of the campaign. However, I wouldn't want they Demon Lord to be destroyed.

For example, I'd like ran a campaign where the party fought some giants, wandering in the underdark for a while, went to the Abyss and killed a Spider Demon goddess in her spider palace. The players will know they defeated the threat for quite a while, until she reforms at some later time (decades, generations, centuries - whatever fits the campaign).

What my ideal presentation would be to give options for the Demon Lords. You don't need to support the DMs who want the "untouchable godlike demon lords" (since they have no use for anything but personalities). For the DMs who want epic level challenges, you create 40 CR creatures. For the DMs who want the Demon Lords just out of the range of 20th level characters, you give them CRs in the high 20s-low 30s. For the DMs who want challenges for their 20th level characters you create you give versions with a CR in the 20-25 range. Then create a version with the CR in the 10th level range.

Then you simply create a heirarchy. The highest level is the Demon Lord. The next level is outside his plane. The following level is his avatar. The lowest level is his aspect. The DM picks the level he wants, the versions below that represent the other variations.

Unfortunately, that's not very practical unless the product is focusing only on one or two Demon Lords. Still, I run an Eberron campaign right now, and I would find the lower ranges most useful for me. My homebrew campaigns would vary, based on the cosmology assumptions I use.

 

[Drowbane]

CR 25-40 avatars, but the archfiends themselves being wholly without stats.

If they absolutely must have stats, those stats must be equivalent to or situationally better than those of deities. Yugoloths carved Khin-Oin from the spine of a deity they killed, they also forced true deities out of active involvement in the Blood War, Prince Levistus is shrinking the size of Set's deific domain in a protracted war, and Asmodeus forced Gruumsh and Maglubiyet out of Avernus and into Acheron.

But no... God forbid we make them higher than a CR 2X because then billy and bobby and suzy won't be able to kill them and take their stuff when they have 20th level PCs. God forbid we have stats that match the flavor text and lore. God forbid we have cosmological consistency as any sort of primary design criteria.

Pinning Archfiends at CR 19-22 or so, barely above the level of a Balor, intentionally watering them down so people can kill them easily is sad. If there's no acknowledgement that the stats are in fact intentionally watered down, or that such beings stats at that level don't accurately represent beings who are physical manifestations of their own alignments, who in many cases predate the deities, whose will warps and defines entire infinite stretches of reality, and provide mention of how to handle such rather than just having them as barely above balors with a few hit dice ... then I'm sorry but someone dropped the ball during development or editing and they've set themselves up as a metaphorical fig tree in need of a dose of withering.

When the primary, and widespread, criticism of the BoVD in that it made its archfiends too weak for the position they occupy and what they're defined as, doesn't appear to have even been a major concern, and even more so they went further in that direction, there's a serious disconnect here.

At least the stats don't represent a majority of the book, but just a small portion of it. The remainder of the book should be well written, so I have that as solace, and I still have Faces of Evil when all is said and done.

QFT

 

[Tsillanabor]

And the unique immoral rulers of the plane should be (even if it's just slightly) more powerfull than some overblown mortal lizzards.

In this context, "immoral rulers" has got to be the best typo evar.

I agree that 20th-level characters should be able to 'beat back' a demon prince-as in remove a manifestation of one from their world forever. I don't like the idea of them killing one on its home turf.

Here's an idea-how much control do demon lords have over their layer of the Abyss? If they can cause the ground to swallow up a Balor they wouldn't need a whole lot more personal power.

 

[Lazybones]

IMC (a modified Forgotten Realms), the demon princes scale up and down with the degree of influence they wield in the cosmology of the Lower Planes. For example, in my Shackled City story hour thread the characters take on two demon princes (Adimarchus and Graz'zt). If both were full strength, and in full control of their realms, the party (just shy of 20th level in the first case, and in the low 20s in the second) should have had absolutely no chance. But in both cases, there was a long establishment period when it was made clear that both demons had fallen far (Adimarchus just escaping from his prison, and G having lost Azzagrat due to earlier events in the campaign). Even at their nadir, both are still tough foes, stronger than any of the generic "book" demons by a fair margin.

But taking on a full-strength Prince on his own layer of the Abyss should be all but impossible for most player characters, in my view, short of the intervention of some sort of greater power. Or if you're playing a stronger epic game (levels in the high 20s and up). I've never taken a game that high so I'm not really sure about all the implications.

 

[Taelohn]

So WotC has given us CR 19-23 demon lords. For those that believe this to be appropriate, let me ask this: would you also like the deities (currently creatures of roughly CR 50-70) to be reduced to the same power level?

After all, if a 20th level party should be able to destroy the princes of the Abyss, then they should be able to do the same to other evil powers like Nerull or Gruumsh. How about Lolth? She's traditionally been a demon princess herself (a less powerful one than the likes of Demogorgon or Orcus, at that).

Of course, it may seem funny that Heironious is less powerful than a solar, or that Mystra is less powerful than Elminster, but if we can overlook glaring plotholes like that with the demons we can overlook them here.

How's CR 25 for the Lady of Pain sound?

 

[Ripzerai]

How's CR 25 for the Lady of Pain sound?

Way too high. Make her a tiefling 2nd level aristocrat/3rd level adept and say that "Sigil favors her." Then proceed to ignore plotholes like crazy.

Or she's three ratatosks. Or a rebus created by the dabus. Or delirium tremens brought on by too much razorvine wine.

Actually, you shouldn't have brought up the Lady of Pain. None of the kill-Orcus-as-soon-as-possible-or-even-before crowd cares about her.

 

[Psion]

Way too high. Make her a tiefling 2nd level aristocrat/3rd level adept and say that "Sigil favors her." Then proceed to ignore plotholes like crazy.

Or she's three ratatosks. Or a rebus created by the dabus. Or delirium tremens brought on by too much razorvine wine.

She is all of that and more.

Because you see, she is the intersection of all possible realities. The lady of pain anchors each reality to existence itself.

Of course no one has ever defeated the lady of pain. If they had, their reality would unravel, and they would not be there to talk about it.

I know. A very wise cutter told me.

 

[Glyfair]

So WotC has given us CR 19-23 demon lords. For those that believe this to be appropriate, let me ask this: would you also like the deities (currently creatures of roughly CR 50-70) to be reduced to the same power level?

Put me in the "Can be appropriate" column.

No, I wouldn't. Plus, the historical background says that gods should be more powerful than demon lords and princes. The Deities and Demi-Gods major gods would have had no problem with Orcus, Asmodeus and the like.

How about Lolth? She's traditionally been a demon princess herself (a less powerful one than the likes of Demogorgon or Orcus, at that).

What was the level of Queen of the Demonweb Pits? You were expected to encounter and face Lolth in her lair. My copy says it's for character levels 10-14. I don't see how she could be "godlike" if 14th level characters are supposed to have a chance facing her in her lair with her minions supporting her.

Assuming characters level through the adventure, and she was a very tough encounter, CR 16-17 might be appropriate.