Demoralize Opponent

[Water Bob]

I like the demoralize opponent feature of the Intimidate skill. I think it brings something to the game that is missing from the d20 mechanics...and, that is that sqeamish feeling a character might get in the pit of his stomach when he sees something like what is in the pics below come screaming at him, ready to separate the character from his life.

What I don't like about how the Demoralize Opponent maneuver is presented is that the effects only last for one combat round.

Really?

You've got something like one of the above screaming, yellin', doing everything it can to take your head off, and if you are intimidated at all, it's only for six seconds?

Hmm....







There's a rule in the Conan RPG called Terror of the Unknown. It's basically a Fear spell, but it ain't a spell at all. Anytime a character comes into contact with some heinous creature or demon, this check is made, with the consequences being akin to that of a Fear spell.

Failing this throw makes the character afraid for 3d6 rounds.




Don't you think that Demoralize Opponent should last for longer than a round?

I'm thinking that this should be a contest at the beginning of each fight. If you fail and are demoralized, then the effect lasts until you make the check--you get to re-try the save against it each round.

After you've made the check once, you are no longer effected by the effects of being demoralized.





Let me show you what I'm talking about in an example.

You're walking down a trail, when you see movement. It's a man, screaming a war cry, coming straight at you. You pull your weapon as melee is about to begin.

1. Roll Initiative.

2. Check to see if either side is demoralized. Remember that it is an action to attempt to demoralize someone, so if already in combat, an action must be spent in order to get the check. There is a chance that both sides are demoralized.

3. If someone is demoralized, then he gets to retry his save against it at the top of each round.





What do you guys think of this?





EDIT: Better Idea - How about a successfully putting damage on your foe also grants you a save vs. being demoroalize if you failed the check earlier?

That way, when you see that you can hurt the object of your fear, it helps you conquer that fear.

But...what about outside of combat rounds? Maybe the effect should last the same as Fear of the Unknown, which is 3d6 rounds?

 

[emoplato]

That sounds reasonable, I wouldn't make it 3d6 rounds though, maybe 1d6, 2d4. 3d6 rounds is pretty long time in typical D&D scenarios, especially for a non-feat, class, and/or racial ability.

 

[Sekhmet]

Take Imperious Command, suddenly this demoralize lasting longer than a round is Reality Shifting OP.

Having been in combat myself, a man screaming at you and brandishing his weapon is only scary until combat starts, when training and experience kick in. One round emulates that very well.

 

[Celebrim]

Take Imperious Command, suddenly this demoralize lasting longer than a round is Reality Shifting OP.

Having been in combat myself, a man screaming at you and brandishing his weapon is only scary until combat starts, when training and experience kick in. One round emulates that very well.

I think that Imperious Command is OP more because it forces cowering than because it produces an effect that lasts two rounds. Shaken is a rather minor debuff. Cower is a pretty extreme one.

Although they've never been exploited by a PC, I do have a feat tree for charisma based fighters that includes such things as extending the duration of the shaken condition to twoand using demoralize opponent as a free action after certain triggering conditions are met (critical hit, drop opponent, etc.). If anything, this is probably still weak, which is the reason I haven't had a player leap onto the idea.

 

[Sekhmet]

I think that Imperious Command is OP more because it forces cowering than because it produces an effect that lasts two rounds. Shaken is a rather minor debuff. Cower is a pretty extreme one.

Although they've never been exploited by a PC, I do have a feat tree for charisma based fighters that includes such things as extending the duration of the shaken condition to twoand using demoralize opponent as a free action after certain triggering conditions are met (critical hit, drop opponent, etc.). If anything, this is probably still weak, which is the reason I haven't had a player leap onto the idea.

The issue is that Imperious Command overwrites the typical demoralize affect and makes it Cower, instead of Shaken. If demoralize were to cause Shaken for more rounds, Imperious Command would cause Cower for more rounds.

I do like the idea of having feats attached that might make demoralize more useful (Fear or disarm maybe), but the idea presented is a little too much in my opinion.

 

[Celebrim]

The issue is that Imperious Command overwrites the typical demoralize affect and makes it Cower, instead of Shaken.

That I agree with; I thought you were putting the emphasis on the multiple round effect and not the condition. I fully agree with you that as an at will ability, using intimidate to cause Paniced/Cowering debuffs is just a bit OP. Spells by comparison have far more restrictions - limited uses per day, most spells that cause fear don't effect creatures immune to mind-effecting spells, and spell resistance. However, an at will ability that exchanges an action for a minor longer duration debuff like shaken probably isn't OP, especially since it still doesn't effect creatures that lack intelligence or are immune to fear.

If demoralize were to cause Shaken for more rounds, Imperious Command would cause Cower for more rounds.

That doesn't necessarily follow. Nothing about the feat implies that it does anything more than what it says it does. Consider my Unnerving feat below as an example that stacks, but which wouldn't case Cower for more rounds.

I do like the idea of having feats attached that might make demoralize more useful (Fear or disarm maybe), but the idea presented is a little too much in my opinion.

I agree. I was just pointing out that improving Demoralize Opponent isn't necessary a bad thing. Anyway, these are the options for demoralizing targets in my homebrew:

UNNERVING [GENERAL]
People can’t seem to find their courage around you.
Benefit: Whenever you successfully intimidate someone to unnerve them, they remain shaken for one additional round.

FLASHY ATTACK [GENERAL]
You can intimidate your opponent with an ostentatious display of weapon skill.
Prerequisite: Chr 13, perform 4 ranks in, base attack bonus +4, either weapon focus or weapon finesse.
Benefit: Chose a weapon with which you have either the weapon focus or weapon finesse feat. You may as a full round action perform a single flashy attack in which you add your charisma bonus to your attack roll. If your attack succeeds, you can attempt to intimidate your opponent as a free action.

FINISHING MOVE [GENERAL]
You kill with style… and a disturbing amount of violence
Prerequisite: base attack bonus +1, 4 ranks intimidate
Benefit: Whenever you drop a foe, you can make an intimidate check as a free action.

PAINFUL STRIKE [CLASS, AMBUSH]
Prerequisite: +2d6 sneak attack, base attack bonus +1, Chr 13, 4 ranks intimidate, Finishing Move
Benefit: If you make a sneak attack and score a critical hit, then the target must make a Fort save vs. DC 10 + sneak attack rank + your Wisdom bonus or be shaken for 1 round.
Special: If you have the Lethality class feature, you may add your lethality bonus to the DC of the save to resist this feat.

AMBUSH MASTERY [CLASS]
No one wants to meet you in a dark ally.
Prerequisite: At least two ambush feats, Dex 13+, Wis 13+, sneak attack 5d6
Benefit:
Strike Hard: You know how to make the most of a target's surprise. Whenever you attack a flat-footed target, you receive a +4 bonus on your to hit roll.
Strike Fast: Whenever you catch the opponent by surprise, you move with such startling swiftness and terrifying ferocity that your opponents mistake you for some sort of supernatural force. Whenever you attack an opponent who you have caught flat-footed, you can make an intimidate check as a free action.
Strike Deep: You really know how to hit vital points. Whenever you force a saving throw as the result of successfully employing any ambush feat you know, the DC of that saving throw is increased by 5.

SADISTIC FLOURISH [GENERAL]
Oh that’s gotta hurt.
Prerequisite: Finishing Move, base attack bonus +1, 4 ranks intimidate
Benefit: Whenever you inflict a critical hit, you may make an intimidate check as a free action.

TERRIFYING RAGE [CLASS]
You are scary.
Prerequisite: Rage class ability.
Benefit: Whenever you enter a rage, you may make an intimidate check as a free action.

 

[Water Bob]

But, it doesn't seem worth it, does it, to put precious skill points into Intimidate and give up an action in combat just to get one round of your enemy shaken.

I'm trying to make Intimidate more attractive to players.





EDIT: Wait! I think I've found the answer! The developers of Pathfinder seemed to think the same way I do, and they threw a little tweak on the throw that allows for longer periods of the victim being shaken.

I like it. I think I'll go with this.

 

[Sekhmet]

But, it doesn't seem worth it, does it, to put precious skill points into Intimidate and give up an action in combat just to get one round of your enemy shaken.

I'm trying to make Intimidate more attractive to players.





EDIT: Wait! I think I've found the answer! The developers of Pathfinder seemed to think the same way I do, and they threw a little tweak on the throw that allows for longer periods of the victim being shaken.

I like it. I think I'll go with this.

As a rule of thumb, whenever I'm unhappy with something presented in 3.x, I check to see if Pathfinder already gave a suitable fix.
Glad you found your answer!

[MENTION=79391]Nebten[/MENTION] A perfect quote for the sentiment, and it holds perfectly true in a real combat.

 

[Jackinthegreen]

Who says you need a standard action to demoralize?

Get a barbarian and take Intimidating Rage and Imperious Command. Because the condition lasts as long as the longest effect, the opponent is cowering for as long as you're raging. If you want a rules quote on that, it's page 53 of the Rules Compendium.

ESCALATING FEAR
Fear effects are cumulative.
A shaken creature that is made shaken again becomes frightened instead, and a shaken creature that is made frightened becomes panicked instead. A frightened creature that is made shaken or frightened becomes panicked instead.
Multiple exposures to the same effect don’t trigger this escalation of fear. Exposure to different effects does. When such multiple exposures occur, the worst stage of fear lasts until the duration of all the effects causing the fear expire.

Thus, a barbarian or anyone else with Intimidating Rage and Imperious Command will leave a creature that failed its save cowering until the rage has ended and shaken the round after. For group fear the Never Outnumbered skill trick comes in handy, especially with Instantaneous Rage.

 

[Celebrim]

Who says you need a standard action to demoralize?

Get a barbarian and take Intimidating Rage and Imperious Command.

Neither of which I'd allow in game, but Ok.

Because the condition lasts as long as the longest effect, the opponent is cowering for as long as you're raging. If you want a rules quote on that, it's page 53 of the Rules Compendium.

They apparantly don't make rules lawyers like they used to. Read that again.

"When such multiple exposures occur, the worst stage of fear lasts until the duration of all the effects causing the fear expire."

The two feats don't cause multiple exposures. They are separate enhancements of the same fear source. You've got only one source of exposure: demoralize foe. You've got one source of exposure. The line you are quoting only applies when you are trying to resolve the duration of multiple overlapping effects. In order to get the cower to have an extended duration, you'd need a second fear effect, probably a spell or something.