Denied DEX = Flat-Footed?

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Is there any difference between being denied a Dexterity bonus and being flat-footed?

Example: Suppose a character successfully feints against an opponent... According to the SRD, "the next melee attack" he makes "against the target does not allow" the target "to use his Dexterity bonus to AC (if any)."

Is the target, now, considered flat-footed? If not, what is the difference between being flat-footed and being denied Dexterity bonus to AC?

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

The difference is that Uncanny Dodge protects you from being flatfooted, but not from the more general condition of losing dex to AC. Sort of like how square is a subset of rectangle, a smaller, more specific grouping. Both allow a Rogue to sneak attack, but losing dex is slightly more valuable than simply making the foe flatfooted, in the rare case that he has Uncanny Dodge or possibly a similar monster ability.

 

[Shin Okada]

The short answer is NO.

A flat-footed character is denied one's dexterity bonus to AC. But being denied one's dexterity to AC does not automatically mean he is flat-footed.

In addition to being denied one's dexterity bonus to AC, a flat-footed creature can't make attack of opportunities.

Also, there may be some special attacks, abilities, rules and such which are applied only to flat-footed creatures.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Thank you, both. This helps, a lot!

 

[NewJeffCT]

I believe you lose your DEX bonus when being grappled, but are not considered flat-footed.

 

[aboyd]

Yeah, what NewJeffCT said. If you happened to be a wizard with the Abrupt Jaunt ability, you would not be able to teleport out of danger when flat-footed, but you certainly would be able to teleport out of danger when losing dexterity due to a grapple.

So it makes a difference.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Thanks.

Which sourcebook has Abrupt Jaunt? I'm not familiar with that one, and it sounds like a nice ability.

 

[Shin Okada]

Which sourcebook has Abrupt Jaunt?

PHB 2. One of Immediate Magic alternative class feature for specialized wizard (Conjurer, in this case).

 

[freebiewitz]

Lets say you have a DEX of 18, now lets say you wear nothing. Your AC would be 14 altogether.
Now lets say you have the mobility feat which gives you 4 AC vs AoO.

So for all intents and purposes we'll just say you have 18 AC.
Now if you were denied your dex your would be on 14 AC.
If you were caught flatfooted you would be on 10 AC because mobility is a dodging type of AC thing, not sure how to explain.

I think thats the case anyways, correct me if I'm wrong ok?

 

[Shin Okada]

Lets say you have a DEX of 18, now lets say you wear nothing. Your AC would be 14 altogether.
Now lets say you have the mobility feat which gives you 4 AC vs AoO.

So for all intents and purposes we'll just say you have 18 AC.

Only against AoO. Mobility feat is effective only against AoO.

Your AC is 14 against usual attacks and 18 against AoO.

Now if you were denied your dex your would be on 14 AC.

Dodge bonus is not applied whenever a creature is denied its Dexterity bonus to AC.

So, if you were denied your dex bonus to AC, your Dodge bonus to AC is also denied. So, your AC is 10 against both usual attacks and AoO.

If you were caught flatfooted you would be on 10 AC because mobility is a dodging type of AC thing, not sure how to explain.

Flat-footed condition denies your Dex bonus to AC. Thus also denies your Dodge bonus. Again, your AC is 10 against both usual attacks and AoO.

Edit: And in this case, if you happen to have Uncanny Dodge class feature, you do not lose your Dex bonus to AC while flat-footed. Thus, your Dodge bonus to AC is not denied. Thus Your AC is 14 against usual attacks and 18 against AoO.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

PHB 2. One of Immediate Magic alternative class feature for specialized wizard (Conjurer, in this case).

Very cool! I have that book, but we haven't implemented much of it into our game, yet.

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

Mobility only protects against AoOs from movement, as well. Which depending on which non-core books you use, could be an important facet to remember.

Very cool! I have that book, but we haven't implemented much of it into our game, yet.

I'd reccommend pretending Abrupt Jaunt didn't exist or nerfing it tremendously. It's incredibly broken as written, and works just as well if you prstige out of wizard ASAP as if you stayed in the class. Note that as written, it lets the caster int times/day evade a full attack (wasting that creature's entire action), charges, many ranged spells and effects, etc...

To fix it, you'd want to tie the range and uses per day to Wizard level, I'd say. Afterall, it's replacing Familiar, which advances with Wizard level and tends to cease advancing if you leave wizard. Then again, there's the Obtain Familiar "trick"...

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

I'd reccommend pretending Abrupt Jaunt didn't exist or nerfing it tremendously.

Thanks for the warning, StreamOfTheSky. None of my players have this book and I haven't even suggested to them that it might be allowed. Right now, we're only using a handful of feats from it, first, before allowing other things.

 

[aboyd]

It's probably good advice to nerf it somehow. I allowed it fully in my campaign, because my point of view was that it wasn't much better than a mirror image spell -- that is, it'll prevent you from getting hit a few times, and then that's it, back to normal. At least, that's how I played an NPC villian that was using the ability.

However, the players were different. They were pissed about the ability being used by a villain, and since you only need a 1 level dip in wizard to get it fully, three characters took it for their next level up, after they encountered the villain who used it. In addition, their first use was not to get out of danger, but instead to get behind a door that they shouldn't have been able to get past at their level.

At first, I nerfed it by saying that it worked like a real Teleport spell, with die rolls for misdirection and botched landings and all that. However, none of the players bothered with the rolls in the heat of battle. That's when I realized that there are 3 items in the Magic Item Compendium that share a teleport mechanism that is easy (no die rolls) and makes sense. The items are: Anklet of Translocation, Boots of Swift Passage, and Dimension Stride Boots. So now it follows the system used by those items (that is, you need line of sight, line of effect, can only take your max load with no riders, and if you try to teleport into an occupied square it fails and the use is expended).

Adding a limitation such as "the number of daily uses is equal to your Intelligence bonus or your class level, whichever is lower," would be another good idea to prevent it from becoming a one-level dip for every single character.

 

[Voadam]

Flat footed

Flat-Footed
At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.

A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.

Also note that a character with combat reflexes can make AoOs while flat footed.

A few other small things trigger off of flat footed I believe. IIRC in Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved there is a first strike feat that gives you +1d6 sneak attack damage against flat footed opponents.

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

It's probably good advice to nerf it somehow...

I like those suggestions, Aboyd. Thank you!

(Don't have MIC, though... yet...).

 

[Hrothgar Rannúlfr]

Flat footed



Also note that a character with combat reflexes can make AoOs while flat footed.

A few other small things trigger off of flat footed I believe. IIRC in Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved there is a first strike feat that gives you +1d6 sneak attack damage against flat footed opponents.

Thanks, Voadam!