denied dex?

[Mystern]

so i'm making a rogue for the campaign i'm in and it's the first rogue i've ever made. i'd like to use the sneak attack ability to it's fullest though so i was wondering if anyone knew of a comprehensive list of exactly when an opponent is denied his dexterity bonus.

 

[Darklone]

A full list? Argh. Don't forget flanking.

You lose your dex bonus vs:
- invisible opponents
- when you're stunned, held, grappled/pinned (by others than the attacker), unconscious, blind, flat-footed, paralysed, balancing, helpless, cowering, dead (not important), running.

You don't lose if if you're:
- prone, flanked, entangled, nauseated, just to name a few of the most common mistakes people make.

Now, the biggest problem for a rogue usually is to put it's enemy into one of these states... not easy besides flanking. Ninja or monk/rogue (Ascetic Rogue for Stunning Fist optimisation) offer nice possibilities, otherwise going invis or blinking or sniping are the few things that come to mind.

 

[akbearfoot]

comprehensive, no. But I can think of a few thing offhand.

Being Flat-footed
Being flanked, not technically denied dex, but also qualifies for sneak attack.
Failing a sense motive check against a feint.
Being blinded, stunned, Held, or paralyzed
Being attacked by an invisible or hidden foe.
If you are climbing or balancing you lose dex, unless you have enough ranks in balance and/or a climb speed. The grease spell is especially effective for this tactic.


Several feats and prestige classes in various books give you special ways to deliver sneak attacks.

Keep in mind that for every method of gaining sneak attack theres probably 2 things that make you immune to it as well!

 

[anhar]

alright so I have a pretty basic question. I've never been sure about balance making you lose your dex. Do you lose it for the whole round, or just until you move off the surface you were balancing on? I ask because I have an all-rogue campaign coming up and wands of Grease are going to be very popular, I think.

 

[Darklone]

alright so I have a pretty basic question. I've never been sure about balance making you lose your dex. Do you lose it for the whole round, or just until you move off the surface you were balancing on? I ask because I have an all-rogue campaign coming up and wands of Grease are going to be very popular, I think.

You lose it as long as you need to balance, e.g. as long as you are in the area of the spell.

Good reason to get 5 ranks in Balance.

I take it you're looking for ways to spoil sneak attack?

Smoke. Darkness. Concealment in any way and there's no sneak attack (but skirmish). So beware scouts.

 

[Zamtap]

Feinting sucessfully denies that opponent his dex, so having 13 int and combat expertise, leads to improved feint for a move action feint that means a low level rogue can deny people their dex.

 

[Mystern]

Feinting sucessfully denies that opponent his dex, so having 13 int and combat expertise, leads to improved feint for a move action feint that means a low level rogue can deny people their dex.

true but all my feats are already used up. i'm not sure if i should pick it up or not. my build is a spiked chain human rogue. i have two flaws from unearthed arcana and am starting out at 3rd level so i get 5 feats
right now my character looks like this

str 14
dex 18
con 15
int 17
wis 14
cha 16

feats: exotic weap. prof. spiked chain
combat reflexes
combat expertise
improved trip
deft opportunist

i suppose i could replace deft opportunist with improved feint. and i've got a +9 bonus on feint. what's your opinion?

 

[AnonymousOne]

Feint is worthless at higher levels (11+)

It's your d20+ Bluff Mod vs their Sense Motive Mod + d20 + Base Attack.

When Monsters have huge BAB, it just becomes pointless to have.

 

[Elemmakil]

The spiked chain isn't good for a conventional rogue build (being prone doesn't allow you to sneak attack, so tripping isn't very helpful). If you want to go melee and can rearrange your stats, I would switch around int, dex and con and go for a 2WF rogue:

dex: 17
con: 18
int: 15

Rogues are so fragile that, if you want to go melee, I put con over even dex. This style of build has two main problem: multiple ability dependency, which doesn't matter to you because your ability scores rock, and the fact that sneak attack relies almost entirely on flanking.

I've never used feinting much; it essentially guarantees one sneak attack per round, but no more. I think of it primarily as a backup option for when you can't flank.

If you want to go ranged, you can use hide to set up sneak attacks. Later, friendly wizards casting improved invisi helps.

-Elemmakil

PS:If you are going to use a spiked chain build, I recommend picking up improved feint over deft opportunist. Oh, and grab weapon finesse ASAP. The problem with this is that you need strength to hit well, dex to get good AoO related stuff and a decent AC, and con to survive many hits with a d6 hit die. Plus, good tripping builds tend to take a lot of feats. Combined with the fact that this doesn't synergize well with sneak attack, I discourage it.

 

[Mystern]

The spiked chain isn't good for a conventional rogue build (being prone doesn't allow you to sneak attack, so tripping isn't very helpful). If you want to go melee and can rearrange your stats, I would switch around int, dex and con and go for a 2WF rogue:

dex: 17
con: 18
int: 15

Rogues are so fragile that, if you want to go melee, I put con over even dex. This style of build has two main problem: multiple ability dependency, which doesn't matter to you because your ability scores rock, and the fact that sneak attack relies almost entirely on flanking.

I've never used feinting much; it essentially guarantees one sneak attack per round, but no more. I think of it primarily as a backup option for when you can't flank.

If you want to go ranged, you can use hide to set up sneak attacks. Later, friendly wizards casting improved invisi helps.

-Elemmakil

PS:If you are going to use a spiked chain build, I recommend picking up improved feint over deft opportunist. Oh, and grab weapon finesse ASAP. The problem with this is that you need strength to hit well, dex to get good AoO related stuff and a decent AC, and con to survive many hits with a d6 hit die. Plus, good tripping builds tend to take a lot of feats. Combined with the fact that this doesn't synergize well with sneak attack, I discourage it.

all the players in this campaign are fighter-esque. reason being that magic has caused an apocalyptic event in the world and has thus been outlawed. the reason i'm using a spiked chain is precicely that flanking is the number 1 use of sneak attack. let's say i'm the x on the following diagram and the o's are all the squares i threaten. which means i can potentially flank from odd angles and flank with a bunch of people at once.

o o o o o
o o o o o
o o x o o
o o o o o
o o o o o

plus, let's say i trip an opponent i'm flanking i get sneak attack dmg on my free attack plus a +6 attack bonus (+2 for flanking +4 for them being prone)
which also means a +6 for my ally

then let's say an enemy gets smart and decides to attack me. as soon as they move out of a threatened square i gett an attack of opportunity. all i need to hit is a touch ac to make a trip attempt then they fall and i get a free attack. then they stand up which provokes another attack of opportunity and regardless of whether or not i hit they have used all their actions. then it's my turn i take a five foot step back and feint (without improved feint) which is my standard action and end my turn. if they try to attack me again i get sneak attack on my next attack with them. the only possibility of something different is if they charge which mean i might want to take hold the line instead of deft opportunist.