D&D General Denying Players Rolls for Attacks, Damage, Saves, Etc

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

My favorite recent example is rule how a fireball works underwater.

?
Don't people have resistance to fire damage while underwater? So, then it would be the same as normal, just half damage. That's really not that strange.

 

[GMMichael]

Is it appropriate for the GM to have an attack roll or saving throw automatically succeed or fail without a roll,

A roll without a roll? This is a standard contradiction.

or have damage rolls be ignored in favor of other effects such as an instant kill? If so, under what circumstances? if not, how do you deal with certain corner cases?

The basic rules call for the DM to describe the outcome of player suggestions. The DM can then call for a roll if there is uncertainty.

For example, let's say that the PC rogue assassin has crept into a sleeping target's chamber. The assassin pulls out a knife and slits the target's throat while they sleep. What happens?

Most people die once their throats are slit. And the PC is showered with XP.

Do you say the target dies regardless of how many hit points they have?

Hit points are used in the combat subsystem. Does this midnight murder involve a combat?

What if a character is in a 10' square chamber with no furnishing or other places to duck behind and an enemy caster launches a fireball into the room? Should the PC get a Dex save even though in the fiction there is no way to avoid the blast? Do they get disadvantage? What if the tables were turned?

A dexterity "saving" throw seems to assume that the PC can be "saved." Further, the point of a Saving Throw is to follow the magic spell's Saving Throw rule: probably that a target takes only half damage from the spell. If you're concerned with the Damage, go ahead and call for a save. Otherwise, stick to the fiction.

What if an enemy had a conscious PC manacled to a wall and walked up and stabbed them with a dagger? Would they have to roll to hit? Again, what if the tables were turned?

I'm seeing a recurring question here. Which is: what am I, as DM, allowed by the rules to do? To me, the question should be: how many rules must I follow to keep the players happy?

 

[Archlogus]

A comment in another thread got me thinking and I am curious:

Is it appropriate for the GM to have an attack roll or saving throw automatically succeed or fail without a roll, or have damage rolls be ignored in favor of other effects such as an instant kill? If so, under what circumstances? if not, how do you deal with certain corner cases? We discuss how GMs call for ability checks/skill rolls or not, and how that's is just part of the way the GM's adjudication works in play. Do you think the same principle applies to the other kinds of rolls made?

For example, let's say that the PC rogue assassin has crept into a sleeping target's chamber. The assassin pulls out a knife and slits the target's throat while they sleep. What happens? Do you say the target dies regardless of how many hit points they have? Do you have the player roll damage (as a crit or not)? Do you force the player to roll to hit? What happens if the tables are turned and the PC is the target?

What if a character is in a 10' square chamber with no furnishing or other places to duck behind and an enemy caster launches a fireball into the room? Should the PC get a Dex save even though in the fiction there is no way to avoid the blast? Do they get disadvantage? What if the tables were turned?

What if an enemy had a conscious PC manacled to a wall and walked up and stabbed them with a dagger? Would they have to roll to hit? Again, what if the tables were turned?

For ability checks, the guideline is to follow the fiction and determine whether there is uncertainty in the outcome. I so, a roll (of some sort) is called for. Does this extend to attack, damage and saving throw rolls?

In other editions instant death spells, abilities etc were common place... They all but vanquished instant death spells from 5e, maybe not saying much but maybe they make that decision with reason (as monsters are bound to be able to utilize such spells more often if not more effective lively than players, if only due go frequency and numbers)... But that is not to say an instant death situation is not appropriate for your campaign... After all if a level one player jumps from 300ft cliff, well bye... So instant death is surely part of the game...

That being said ,let us look at what the game provides by way of rules already:
(i)players always get their passive perception as a note (maybe at disadvantage but in that case even allowing a skill Check (and a roll for AC, incapacitated is like the worst condition) is allowing the player a chance... As opposed to them just well dying...
(ii) death from massive damage rules would really be where it is at... It is based on the CURRENT BP so one would have to deal DOUBLE a creatures MAX HP at full health (notice that instant killing a level one commoner is easyish)... Note, if your assassin is incapable of dealing this much damage in one blow, well then, let the player fight it out... Also if a player drops to 0 then all the assassin may need is an extra blow...

As a note, in a case where we are talking about the death of a player then auto success in favor of the outcome "death for player" would be inappropriate as far as I am concerned... Hope this helps.

 

[Shiroiken]

It depends on the game style, but it can be. I had a jackwagon player back in 1E put his throat against a loaded crossbow because "the damage can't kill him;" he was surprised when he died. Back then, you could just have your throat slit while under a Sleep spell, so obviously a character who deliberately exposed his throat to an attack would suffer the same. I also had a player autofail a Fireball that he cast in a 10x10 room (yes, he died too). Before 3E tried to codify what happens when you're completely vulnerable, the idea that there were some things you couldn't escape with a die roll was widely accepted (if not particularly enjoyed). Later editions took away this idea, putting lots of mechanics in the way of logic, but the DM is still given a lot of leeway when it comes to modifiers.

 

[aco175]

Somehow he got out. Made his save vs. laser and avoided the crit while in shackles. I let the PCs have a roll to do spectacular. And I would grant inspiration to the funny witticism.

 

[Grogg of the North]

It depends, really. Does rolling add anything to help you succeed?

Is the monster's health less than or equal to your minimum damage? Then it goes squish if you hit. Don't bother with damage. Is your target bound up, helpless, or otherwise unable to defend themselves? Then you hit, just go ahead and roll damage. Is your skill bonus so high that even on a 1 you pass the DC? Then just go ahead and do your action.

The only time I really skip saving throws is when I GM. If I know that the fireball is going to kill the monster, even if they make their saving throw, then I will just skip it and start removing baddies from the field.

 

[RuinousPowers]

I wouldn't do instakill or HP bypassing lethal attacks vs characters. HP represent the heroicness of the character, that touch of skill or destiny that sets them apart. A drop of the assassin's sweat awakens the character at the last moment, the character's clothing protects them from the flame, and I would never manacle a PC to the wall and stab them, because I'm not playing Hostel: the RPG.

 

[Oofta]

A comment in another thread got me thinking and I am curious:

Is it appropriate for the GM to have an attack roll or saving throw automatically succeed or fail without a roll, or have damage rolls be ignored in favor of other effects such as an instant kill? If so, under what circumstances? if not, how do you deal with certain corner cases? We discuss how GMs call for ability checks/skill rolls or not, and how that's is just part of the way the GM's adjudication works in play. Do you think the same principle applies to the other kinds of rolls made?

For example, let's say that the PC rogue assassin has crept into a sleeping target's chamber. The assassin pulls out a knife and slits the target's throat while they sleep. What happens? Do you say the target dies regardless of how many hit points they have? Do you have the player roll damage (as a crit or not)? Do you force the player to roll to hit? What happens if the tables are turned and the PC is the target?

The target can always roll over in their sleep, by sheer luck happen to wake up, or even just be a light sleeper that can effectively sense danger and so on. Odds are the assassin will still kill the target if they're unconscious. A 1 still misses, but a miss may not awaken the target.

What if a character is in a 10' square chamber with no furnishing or other places to duck behind and an enemy caster launches a fireball into the room? Should the PC get a Dex save even though in the fiction there is no way to avoid the blast? Do they get disadvantage? What if the tables were turned?

Saves vs fireball are always a bit wonky, aren't they? You don't ever get a free move out of the area of effect so I assume people do the Batman thing where a cape protects them from damage or they hide behind a shield, duck and cover.

What if an enemy had a conscious PC manacled to a wall and walked up and stabbed them with a dagger? Would they have to roll to hit? Again, what if the tables were turned?

The PC is restrained. That's all. If held down by more than just manacles I might consider them paralyzed so it's an automatic crit.

For ability checks, the guideline is to follow the fiction and determine whether there is uncertainty in the outcome. I so, a roll (of some sort) is called for. Does this extend to attack, damage and saving throw rolls?

You can always roll a 1 in my game. That will be a failure, whether you can try again will depend on some sort of check.

Last, but not least, whatever is good for the goose is good for the gander. PCs and NPCs follow exactly the same rules, the PCs don't get any metagame advantages.

 

[DEFCON 1]

What is the story we at the table are telling? And do the game rules facilitate interesting twists and turns and compelling action for how the story progresses, or are they just wasting our time and blocking the advancement of the story for no other reason than "dem's da rulz!"?

If the story the PCs are playing is trying to silently break into a castle because McGuffin is taking place and they are there to try and stop it... I am more than happy to facilitate that story. Which means that we have pseudo-cut scenes of PCs sneaking up on lowly castle guards and snapping their necks and slicing their throats on their way inside towards the McGuffin taking place. Because dealing with the McGuffin is the story the players wish to engage with.

The story is not... "Try and gain Surprise on first guard they come to and hope they can do enough damage to kill the guard in that Surprise round because otherwise they now have to engage in a hand-to-hand melee combat with that guard over X numbers of rounds... while hoping the fight goes quickly and quietly enough so that it doesn't get heard by the next guard about 100 feet away. Then move up to the next guard and do the exact same thing again. And again. And again. Slowly inching their way through guard after guard after guard, hoping not to be heard... because if it does get heard (because I roll a Perception check for that guard), then that guard joins the battle and causes enough ruckus to alert three other guards... who then alert other guards in the castle and so forth until eventually the story is 'Party gets into massive fight against the entire castle guard at the gates of the castle and they never actually get to the McGuffin because they either are killed, retreat, or wasted so much time in an endless battle with the entirety of the castle that the folks at the McGuffin sped up their timetable to get it taken care of before the party was able to reach them.'"

One of these is fun. The other is getting stuck doing endless trash pulls. (In my opinion of course.)

 

[Blue]

Basically, much of D&D mechanically is about resource attrition. If there isn't going to be any (or meaningful) attrition, speed play and just narrate.

One DMing trick I picked up from another game is when the character rather exceed the task do no rolling but instead just do a quick montage going around the table and everyone highlighting one awesome thing their character did in resolving the issue.