Dervish Dance, Spring Attack, Tumble, and AoOs

[Darklone]

There's one problem: A TWF Dervish has already spent more feats than he gets.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

That's a serious problem indeed. I think you can solve it by gettin' more levels and therefore more feats.

 

[sledged]

There's one problem: A TWF Dervish has already spent more feats than he gets.

Only if you assume levels of Dervish are taken at the soonest available opportunity.

 

[Tyrol]

There's one problem: A TWF Dervish has already spent more feats than he gets.

Not if he's a multiclass fighter/ranger. Can get Dervish as soon as possible and have a feat open at character level 9.

 

[Tyrol]

One last set of questions about dervishes.

1) Can a Dervish use the Power Attack feat using a Scimitar?

2) What if the Dervish only has one scimitar, and wishes to use it as a 2-handed weapon. Can he do so and still recieve the *1.5 strength bonus to damage?

I believe the letter of the rules say no to all of these questions (*unless the Dervish can choose to turn Slashing Blades off and on as Black Knight Irios points out), but I would think common sense says that since the Dervish had (or still has?) the proficiency to use a Scimitar as a "One-Handed" weapon at one time, that they still could if they desired to (especially for purposes of using a single scimitar as a 2-handed weapon, in the very least). The Sunblade comes to mind as an example of a weapon that could be used as either (with both bastard sword and short sword feats, one of which is classified as one-handed and the other light). While I realize that this example is different - that the Sunblade is a magical weapon, and the scimitar used by a Dervish is not necessarily magic - I could see a Dervish PC arguing that they should have a choice in their usage, particularly if they have moved on from the Dervish PrC but still wish to use Scimitar(s).

3) If a Dervish *can* declare a Scimitar's use as either a 1-handed weapon or light weapon (see argument below quotes), can she use Power Attack while dual wielding, declare both to be 1-handed weapons and incurring an extra -2 (for a total of -4) on the offhand attack (since it is not light)?

4) Could the Dervish declare the main-hand Scimitar as a One-Handed weapon, the off-hand as a light weapon?

5) If the dervish could choose different usage for different hands (as in question 4), could she Power Attack and receive the benefits of Power Attack on the main-hand, but not the offhand (though all attacks would take the penalty)?

6) Repeat Question 1-5 with any TWF using two sunblades. What would the answers be then?

Would this be house rules?

Relevant Quotes:

Martial Weapons
One-Handed Melee Weapons
Scimitar
Cost Dmg (S) Dmg (M) Critical Range Increment Weight1 Type2
15 gp 1d4 1d6 18–20/x2 — 4 lb. Slashing

POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Str 13.
Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.
Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands, instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls. You can’t add the bonus from Power Attack to the damage dealt with a light weapon (except with unarmed strikes or natural weapon attacks), even though the penalty on attack rolls still applies. (Normally, you treat a double weapon as a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. If you choose to use a double weapon like a two-handed weapon, attacking with only one end of it in a round, you treat it as a two-handed weapon.)
A fighter may select Power Attack as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Light, One-Handed, and Two-Handed Melee Weapons: This designation is a measure of how much effort it takes to wield a weapon in combat. It indicates whether a melee weapon, when wielded by a character of the weapon’s size category, is considered a light weapon, a one-handed weapon, or a two-handed weapon.
Light: A light weapon is easier to use in one’s off hand than a one-handed weapon is, and it can be used while grappling. A light weapon is used in one hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus (if any) to damage rolls for melee attacks with a light weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or one-half the wielder’s Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
One-Handed: A one-handed weapon can be used in either the primary hand or the off hand. Add the wielder’s Strength bonus to damage rolls for melee attacks with a one-handed weapon if it’s used in the primary hand, or 1/2 his or her Strength bonus if it’s used in the off hand. If a one-handed weapon is wielded with two hands during melee combat, add 1-1/2 times the character’s Strength bonus to damage rolls.

Slashing Blades: A dervish treats the scimitar as a light weapon (rather than a 1 handed weapon) for all purposes including fighting with two weapons.

Edit: Hit before finishing, and fixing scimitar table.

Edit2: Added Question 4-6, abandoned fixing table, darn code likes to squish spaces even in courier new, drat! Typos.
I'd also like to note that I realize the RP aspect of a Dervish tends toward subtlety, not brute force, as the flavor text says (so traditionally they probably would never take power attack), but I'm looking at it in terms of gameplay.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

If you read the Slashing Blades special ability of the class as to work always and regardless of the fact that the dervish wants it to work or not, you can't use scimitars with PA, because you can't use light weapons with PA.
I would allow a player to choose wether he wants the SB ability to be active or not for the round at the beginning of his turns. With all the consequences that arise based on his decision.

 

[The Souljourner]

One of the rules we've added to the PHB is that no one is forced to use an ability their character has, unless there is a realistic reason why the character must use that ability. The question came up with improved overrun and times when you *wanted* an opponent to be able to avoid you. I say the same thing applies here. It's not like something is physically forcing the dervish to wield scimitars as light weapons.. he just has figured out how. I can't see a dervish with the power attack feat picking up a scimitar and going "damn.... if only I weren't so good at wielding this thing... I used to know how to hit really hard with it..."

Right. The dervish should be able to choose when and how he uses each ability, unless something in the rules requires him to use an ability. If he can wield scimitars as light weapons, fine, but that doesn't mean he has to. He should be able to use his main scimitar as a one handed weapon and the offhand one as a light weapon. It's not even unbalancing.... either he's taking a minus to hit with both weapons and only getting power attack damage on one, or he's taking an addition -2 to hit with both and does get power attack. Neither is at all overpowered, and personally, I'd never use power attack in this way.

-The Souljourner

 

[Hypersmurf]

One of the rules we've added to the PHB is that no one is forced to use an ability their character has, unless there is a realistic reason why the character must use that ability.

Like, say, "Light Sensitivity"?

If he can wield scimitars as light weapons, fine, but that doesn't mean he has to.

Well, it doesn't say 'can treat', it says 'treats'.

-Hyp.

 

[Darklone]

Dervish class with all it's bonuses to hit and full attacks while moving would be too strong if you allow to use Power Attack with TWF as well.

Nothing keeps you from using a falchion though

Feats for a dervish: He needs 4 prerequ feats, Weapon Focus+WS would be nice for scims, Improved Critical sounds like a must have, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, TWD would be nice as well... Elusive Target to beat all those Power Attacking barbarians... Did I forget something?

Last time I checked, 8 fighter levels (uuuh, GWF) were not enough to cover all these feats.

 

[Tyrol]

Dervish class with all it's bonuses to hit and full attacks while moving would be too strong if you allow to use Power Attack with TWF as well.

Nothing keeps you from using a falchion though

Feats for a dervish: He needs 4 prerequ feats, Weapon Focus+WS would be nice for scims, Improved Critical sounds like a must have, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, TWD would be nice as well... Elusive Target to beat all those Power Attacking barbarians... Did I forget something?

Last time I checked, 8 fighter levels (uuuh, GWF) were not enough to cover all these feats.

Char. Level 1 (Rng1)
Feat: Weapon Focus(Scimitar)
Human bonus Feat: Combat Expertise
Ranger Feature: Track Feat
Ranger Feature: Favored Enemy
Ranger Feature: Wild Empathy

Char Level 2 (Rng1/Ftr1)
Fighter Bonus Feat: Dodge

Char Level 3 (Rng2/Ftr1)
Feat: Mobility OR Two Weapon Defense (OR Power Attack, if it would work with Dervish Scims) OR perhaps even Defensive Strike OR Dash
Ranger Feature: Combat Style - Two Weapon Fighting

Char Level 4 (Rng2/Ftr2)
Fighter Bonus Feat: Mobility (this is the last prerequisite feat for Dervish and it could've been taken at Char. Level 3, but taking it here allows more feat options at CLevel 3) OR Power Critical(Scimitar) if you took Mobility at 3rd.

Char Level 5 (Rng2/Ftr3)
No Feats.

Level 6, enter Dervish, take Feat: Imp. TWF OR Elusive Target

Level 9 - take Feat: Imp. Crit.(Scimitar) OR Whatever you didn't take at level 6

Level 12 - take Feat: Greater TWF or whatever you didn't take at level 9

Level 15 - (Last level of Dervish) Feat: Whatever you didn't take at level 12 (finally catching up with those feats)

Level 16 (Ftr4) - Weap. Spec.(Scimitar)
Level 17 - Rng3 or multiclass into something new.
Level 18 (Rng4 or another level of new class) - Feat: TWD OR Imp. TWDefense OR Whirlwind Attack (since you have all prereq's anyway) OR Dash, etc.

Of course, if you didn't care about entering the Dervish PrC as soon as possible, and wanted to pick up other feats first, you could wait. The main problem isn't # of feats, its the BAB restrictions on the good ones that happen to fall right as you are entering the Dervish PrC (if you enter asap). Elusive Target and ImprovedTWF have that +6 BAB, Imp. Critical has +8, GreaterTWF has +11. So thats 4 feats you want in a span of 5 levels, where you only get 2 feats. Thankfully, you can catch up at level 12 and 15.


Tyrol