Design & Development: Quests

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Soo...what was the point of "quests" again iif I'm changing everything on the fly?

It's there because you can base their change on something. You know that there exists a kind of "mechanic" for a quest. It invites you to structure the DM's and the group's play in a way that is easy to remember. Once you've defined a quest, it exists as a ready concept that can be referred back. A quest card would even go further and provide you a tangible object that you can refer too, instead of a scribbled note on the border of your adventure print out. It serves as the DM's reminder "oh, the player's didn't do X, as expected, but they are now going for Y which I wasn't really prepared for, I might need to put some work in that for the next session." or the player's reminder "Hmm, X will probably not work out hot, but Y sounds interesting. Let's keep a look out if we find more clues/allies/items for Y."
And the fun is that you might notice a "hidden quest" - something that did only appear due to the specific dynamic of the game. Having it written down as a quest means you won't forget it and can increase the chance you will revisit the idea before the party has moved on too far.

These information always existed somewhere, but their accessibility wasn't always there, and sometimes people just forget things about the game. Because it is one game of many they play in, or because real life took hold of their mind instead of the game...

 

[MerricB]

I've just bought my first set of quest cards. Cool, huh?

There are a couple of myths already about this idea, so let's debunk a few of them:

Myth #1: Quest Cards will be released by Wizards in collectable packs.

Err, no. Quest Cards are group-generated. You get a blank piece of card, and you write the details of the quest down on it.

Myth #2: Quest Cards can only be given out by the DM for his big group stories

No, again. Indeed, in the article it's stated that "[q]uests can be major or minor, they can involve the whole group or just a single character's personal goals". Quest cards are just a way of visually representing the quests.

The examples given in the article are of the type of "and here's one I prepared earlier..." where the adventure the DM's written is likely to generate certain quests, and so the DM can just hand out those quests.

If a player decides he needs to see an oracle, he can just create his own Quest Card on the spot.

Myth #3: Quest Cards include the XP reward the PCs will get for completing the quest

No. Look, there's the DM's tools for running quests in the DMG, and there is the Quest Cards which are the reminders to the players that they're on a quest - or several!

The 4e DMG will have tools to allow the DM to generate quests - they'll have a level assigned to them, which determines the amount of XP they have as a final reward. The level will probably be determined by how difficult the quest is. Not all quests will have XP rewards or levels, but it's there for quests the DM considers important enough.

There's some confusion coming from one of the examples, but have a look at it again: "At the start of the adventure, after the baron has briefed the characters on their mission and been bullied into paying them more than he intended, you can hand the players an index card spelling out the details of the quest -- including the agreed-upon reward."

The PCs are going on a quest (so a Quest Card), and they've bullied the Baron into paying more than he intended, so the reward he'll pay them is written on the card as a reminder.

That's all it is. You don't write Quest Level or XP awards on the card; it's just a reminder for the characters of things that happened in-character, just like a journal a PC might keep.

Cheers!

 

[Stone Dog]

Isn't it just as obnoxious to assume that what you as DM feel the PC's should be doing is what they should be rewarded for?

No. Not in the least. If the game the DM has planned out involves going through a dwarven mine rather than over some mountains, it is more obnoxious to say "We don't care about the work you've done... we want to go over." It is in fact NICER of the GM to say "Key milestones will be rewarded, but only if you actually get to them" rather than saying "Oh yeah? What do you say about a big damn blizzard in your way? Nope. Nothing you can do. King of evil wizards sent it."

Okay, pretend Moria was a lot more fun for that example.

Set story awards collaborated upon and agreed upon by both DM and player are my thing...

Yeah, and there are rooms for both things. One can be a Story Quest and one can be a Personal Quest.

IMHO, story awards created by just the DM is more akin to pushing for things to go the way you envision them.

Of COURSE they are. Making a campaign is a lot of work. Is it really so rude and awful to have a pretty little handout ready that says "This way to fortune and glory?"

Clarifying quests is no different from just telling the players "Look, the adventure is THAT way, over there is stuff I'm not ready for and won't be as cool or fleshed out." Story based rewards are BASIC to D&D. Most of the time they are just "The Baron will give you 500 gold pieces for smacking the goblins around," but there isn't anything wrong with "500 more XP for bringing the warlord to trial instead of riding into the city with his head on a pike."

Tom, who loves roleplaying, has his PC go into The Forlorn Castle because the clues of his father's whereabouts have led him here...Jacob, who loves the tactical side and gaining new powers, has his PC enter Forlorn Castle because he wants to raid it for loot and kick but. IMHO, it seems like yur saying Tom should be rewarded more because he plays better?? than Jacob.

No, Tom should get a bonus if he can find the clues he is seeking and Jacob should get a bonus if he manages to take on the Jabberthingie rumored to be in the castle singlehandedly.

You want clues? I'll give you a special challenge for YOU to overcome and you can get your clues and maybe a little extra XP in the bargain.

You want to kick ass and get stuff? There is a monster in there with your name on it and somebody at the Tavern has a ruby the size of an egg that says you can't take it on yourself. Oh, and you don't have to share the XP with the rest of the party.

There are lots of ways that Quests can go to be tailored for individual players. They don't have to be turned into a pixel-bitch where you have to figure out the exact way the DM wants you to dance.

 

[Remathilis]

We already do this in our game. Only it's called the Party Note-Taker and one of the players takes care of it.
Also, my players aren't so retarded that they need to be told what a key is for. ("Ah, so this will open a 'lock' you say? And we should find such a device and try to... open it? Open, right? With this 'key'?")

Obviously a link won't work, so I'm going to have to paste the whole thing...

 

[Remathilis]

Emphasis Mine:

Isn't it just as obnoxious to assume that what you as DM feel the PC's should be doing is what they should be rewarded for? Are these xp story awards always something the PC's (not players) would do?

Set story awards collaborated upon and agreed upon by both DM and player are my thing...IMHO, story awards created by just the DM is more akin to pushing for things to go the way you envision them. YMMV of course.

So I get the same amount of XP for killing the people in the Keep that I do going out to the Cave of Chaos? Sweet. Down enough of those CR 1 wusses and get all the good loot from the armory. Pretty soon, I'm 3rd level, decked out in +1 gear, and ready to go ADVENTURING!

 

[Aenghus]

Quest handouts are a suggestion and the example is of a record of a particular task and the IC reward to be given to the party on completion of the quest. Since the idea is to hand these cards to the players, I think it very unlikely that xp details will be provided on them.

While this does seem to be primarily aimed at new players, I still see it as a more generally useful idea. I have less time to prepare games than I used to, and I don't think I am alone in this. While a fully organic and realised setting is the ideal, this takes time I can no longer rely on having. It is harder and harder to actually arrange games, as RL gets in the way.

Quest cards can help in a number of ways. For beginners, they give a concrete task to focus on. Sometimes players accidentally wander away from a plot, reminders can help, and can be less heavy handed than straight DM reminders. A lot of players don't take any notes, which limits the sorts of plots useable. Good handouts can add a lot to a game.

These aids are less relevant to player-driven and plot-light campaigns, unless the players interests and pc motivations are taken into account. I understand the raliroading and bad habit concerns. but these happen already in any case.

And for the people who habitually sabotage plots, quest cards make it easier to do

 

[Mostlyjoe]

What's funny is I've used the card idea before. And had it used on me. Well, quest note sheet. Each 'story' was given to us as notes in a Composition Notebook. It's a classic play style called Blue Booking.

 

[PeterWeller]

Imagine two possible options for action. One has a quest card, the other does not. The PCs automatically know that, if they choose the quest card option, that it is worth some amount of XP, and that if they do not, it is not.

Does it? Where does it say that players must receive a reward for completing what's written on the card? What if I give the players a quest card saying, "deliver X for Y and receive Z in payment," but I don't assign any story XP to completing the mission on the card, instead, I assign story XP to discovering that Y is a wererat and X is a shipment of poisoned wine? Quest cards can be simple reminders of what the players have been asked to do; they don't have to define what is and is not an important goal or part of the story.

I think people need to divorce the first part of this article, rules for quest rewards, from the second part, a suggestion to ease bookkeeping. Sure, they both deal with the concept of quests, but they're not linked any further than that.

 

[Lurks-no-More]

Like several other posters here, I'm baffled (but sadly, not surprised) by the reactions in this thread.

The point of the article is that 4e is going to have story awards built in the system; this is excellent news. (Particularly since one of the long-standing criticisms of D&D is "You only get XP from killing things!") And I don't see how this will lead to either railroading or "non-adult episodic gaming" any more than the current system, either.

Yet way too many people have focused on the suggestion of the DM using index cards as hand-outs, with the (by now all too predictable) calls of "MMOs", "CRPGs" and "pre-teen gamers" ruining the essential fluids of our precious D&D, and WotC turning D&D into a board game or whatever.

I swear, there is something wrong with us gamers.

 

[KingCrab]

The point of the article is that 4e is going to have story awards built in the system; this is excellent news. (Particularly since one of the long-standing criticisms of D&D is "You only get XP from killing things!") And I don't see how this will lead to either railroading or "non-adult episodic gaming" any more than the current system, either.

Yet way too many people have focused on the suggestion of the DM using index cards as hand-outs, with the (by now all too predictable) calls of "MMOs", "CRPGs" and "pre-teen gamers" ruining the essential fluids of our precious D&D, and WotC turning D&D into a board game or whatever.

I swear, there is something wrong with us gamers.

There are people who don't mind many CRPG aspects in D&D, and also don't mind using cards to keep track of spells or feats, but absolutely hate the idea of quest cards because they see them as restricting creativity. It is possible to like the idea of the DM using index cards as handouts, but not like handouts which suggest the players take one specific form of action. If the players get handed a card that guarantees a reward if they do X, then they may not think about alternate paths they might take and instead go straight for the suggested action and reward.