design of town npc level

scramasax

First Post
With the change to the rules I am a little lost about what could be considered a common hero in a town. How do you convert level from 3rd edition

By example if in 3rd edition if there was a temple with 1 6t level , 1 5th level , 4 1st level and 12 acolyte priest. Which level would you give those priest in the 4th edition?
 

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Rechan

Adventurer
Whatever level you need them to be, or feel is appropriate. Or even no level.

A town's high priest could just be level 1 with the Ritual Caster feat and +10 to Heal and Religion skills.

Unless they're getting into combat, I wouldn't bother with any stats beyond what I said above.
 
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Rechan

Adventurer
It belatedly occurs to me that you might have found my last post sarcastic, or utterly non-helpful. But I'm serious:

If an NPC makes no checks or is not attacked, then do they have stats? My answer (and the assumption of the rules): No, they don't.

Or rather, their "level" is irrelevant. If you need an NPC whose only relevance in play is having a +10 to History, then you just have a guy with a +10 to History, and that's it. You don't have to reverse engineer his level to determine how many hit points he should have and what other skills at what bonus he should have if all you need is him to make history rolls.

If, however, you need to determine their stats because they are in combat, then use what you think is an appropriate challenge. Do you want them to be a challenge to the PCs? Than likely 1-5 levels above or below the PCs. If not, then below or above, as you see fit.

But if you really do want a level based system, then use the same method you did in 3e: 6th level, 5th level, 4 1st level clerics, and some minion acolytes.
 

scramasax

First Post
I don't care about hp and combat skill for most of them. I care much about the non combat skill like insight, diplomacy, knowledge, bluff and rituals that the npc can do. When I build a campaign around a town they will see often the same npc and interact with them so it is just fair for the player to always use the same insight skill fo the same npc . As time goes on the player begin to learn that some npc are better at reading their lie than some others.

While playing my player will tell lie to the npc, try to know if they bluff, try to buy some service from them. I find it just easier to already have beforehand the stat when I need them than calculate them on the fly i the middle of the game. Player will do all kind of things you have not think about and having the stats ready help.

For hero class npc like mage and priest the players will know that if the npc is able to do spell A it is because they are of a level high enough to do spell B later in the game.

I like also to imagin how many high level there is inside an organisation. If you use a standard world like greyhawk or forgotten realms the higher level priest will be in some specific town and the level will go down as town get smaller. If they require something specific service the player might have to go to the next bigger town because they ask for something just too big for where they are. With the new rules I am still lost about what would be normal for a town of 1000 people or 10 000 people or how many level 25 is there in the world
 

Boarstorm

First Post
I look at it like this -- if the character isn't "connected" to one of the players sitting around my table, they don't have a level-- at least, not in the way that the PCs do -- just a level in the sense of any other monster.

So that cleric may be level 8, but he's not an 8th level cleric, if you catch my meaning. He's a level 8 skirmisher with the cleric template and a power or two for flavor.
 

Rechan

Adventurer
Page 187-188 has the information you're looking for. In general an NPC is going to have two skills they're trained in. You can set their ability scores based on level, etc.

So for instance, let's say you have Friar Blank, who is a 4th level cleric. We'll say he's a cleric, so he has Religion and History (He's a cloistered, bookish sort). The standard NPC ability score array are 16, 14, 13, 12, 11, 10. 4th level NPCs get a +1 to two stats.

So Friar Blank's stats are Str 10, Dex 11, Con 12, Int 17 (+1 for level 4), Wis 15 (+1 for level 4), Cha 13. Skills: History +8, Religion +8. His passive Insight and Perception are 12 (10+2 wisdom).

Meanwhile you have Sister Rendall, who is a charitable, sympathetic nun who consoles others and does work of the heart. But she's also very perceptive. She is 2nd level (no stat boosts), and trained in Diplomacy and Insight. Her array is: Str 10, Dex 12, Con 11, Int 13, Wis 14, Cha 16. Skills: Insight +7, Diplomacy +8. Passive Insight 17, passive Perception 12.

Bam, done.
 
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Rechan

Adventurer
scramasax said:
While playing my player will tell lie to the npc, try to know if they bluff, try to buy some service from them. I find it just easier to already have beforehand the stat when I need them than calculate them on the fly i the middle of the game. Player will do all kind of things you have not think about and having the stats ready help.
There are just no pre-made NPC stats.

My players never really ask me what level NPC x is. So knowing if they can cast spell B because they can cast spell A is metagaming. NPCs don't work like PCs, end of story for me.

To put it another way, I believe that the assumption in 3e was that 95% of the population were commoners (the NPC class). Priests had the adept class. PC classed NPCs were a rarity. So more than likely among all the priests in the local church, maybe one is a cleric.

With the new rules I am still lost about what would be normal for a town of 1000 people or 10 000 people or how many level 25 is there in the world
Use the 3e book, because that's... pretty much beyond the scope of what I'd say most people expect.
 
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JohnBiles

First Post
scramasax said:
With the new rules I am still lost about what would be normal for a town of 1000 people or 10 000 people or how many level 25 is there in the world

This is not official, this is made up on the fly, but you might find it useful:

Here's a system of tiers of settlement:

Hamlet (1-500)
Village (501-1,000)
Market Town (1,001-5,000)
Large Town (5,001-10,000)
City (10,001-20,000)
Large City (20,000-30,000)
Metropolis (30,000 + )

Hamlets have people up to level 3 at most, unless the plot dictates otherwise. Most of the population is Minions. They have a single shrine, home to a single ritual caster (trained in Religion), who probably doesn't have actual Cleric levels, but who is the Shrine's priest(ess). The shrine may have a few first level human minion acolytes if the town is devout. They might have a hedge wizard (unclassed Ritual caster who is trained in Arcane). They likely have several people with fighter and ranger style abilities, though likely no one who is fully classed.

A Village has people up to 6th level, though most are 1-2nd or more likely, minions. They likely have a temple with several ritual casters and possibly a full blown Cleric, along with a few acolytes. They may also have a shrine or two at the level of a Hamlet shrine. They probably have a hedge wizard or two (Arcane Ritual casters). They likely have a full blown fighter or ranger (or possibly some other class) who is the local 'lord' or a representative of said lord.

Market Towns and Large Towns may have people up to 10th level, and have a moderate number of people with classes. There is probably one large temple (with several clerics, a fair number of ritual casters, and lots of Acolytes), several temples the size of a village one, and several shrines of the Hamlet type. There are going to be several Wizards and Warlocks, and a fair number of Arcane Ritual Casters who may also know a few wizard/warlock tricks. At this point, you'll start to find Rogues in any significant numbers, and a fair number of Fighters and Rangers working for the city/the lord/etc. A handful of Paladins will usually be found as well. The Town's lord is probably a formidable customer (or wealthy enough to hire such).

Cities and Metropoli will have Paragon tier NPCs, though any above 13th (for a City) or 16th (for a Metropolis) will be fairly uncommon. They'll have a goodly number of Heroic Tier folk. A handful of large temples will have a Paragon level boss, a goodly number of Heroic tier priests, and tons of ritual casters and acolytes. Metropoli will likely have a temple for every one of the official gods worshipped in the area and covert temples of ones forbidden. There may well be an actual Arcane caster guild. Many temples will have paladins, and you can hire actual fighters, rangers, etc. And there's likely a good sized Rogue's guild/crime gang/etc.

Epic Tier folk, or even Paragon tier folk beyond 16th ought to be placed as the plot dictates; they're going to be very rare, as very few people climb these heights.

Suggestions for building 'normals':

Use this array for attributes: 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13. Then add racial bonuses. Hit points are 8 + Con at first level. Healing Surges are 4 + Con.

A normal first level person has 3 trained skills, 4 if they're human. (and one feat, 2 if human). One of those should be something related to what they do for living, unless you deliberately intend them to be incompetent. They should have the Feat Skill Focus for whatever they do best (Possibly their job, but your call). Feel free to make up skills that aren't on the official list but which reflect normal person occupations.

If you create a normal person above first level, who isn't intended to be a combatant, give them 3 hit points per level and the usual +1 to everything every 2 levels.

Bob the 1st level Human Blacksmith:
S: 15 I: 11 W: 10 Dex: 9 Con: 12 Ch: 8
Skills: Blacksmithing (Str): 10, Endurance: 9, Insight: 5, Perception 5
Feats: Skill Focus (Blacksmithing), Skill Focus (Endurance)
 

Hussar

Legend
scramasax said:
/snip
I like also to imagin how many high level there is inside an organisation. If you use a standard world like greyhawk or forgotten realms the higher level priest will be in some specific town and the level will go down as town get smaller. If they require something specific service the player might have to go to the next bigger town because they ask for something just too big for where they are. With the new rules I am still lost about what would be normal for a town of 1000 people or 10 000 people or how many level 25 is there in the world

I do not have the books, so, I'm talking out of my bum here.

I would think that the advice in the DMG on designing your world would probably say something to the effect that demographics are your decision entirely. If you want a sort of progression, like the standard 3ed demographics, go ahead. OTOH, if you want to create your own demographics, I think you are encouraged to do that as well.

Since the assumption is Points of Light, I would think that settlements would likely contain higher powered individuals, even if the population is lower than what 3e would assume. It makes some sense if each settlement needs to be self sufficient and protect itself from its enemies.
 

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