Ware fare is responsive to technological advances, and usually in a much delayed way. It took a long time for nations to realize just how much gunpowder changed warfare, for example, and even now we are having difficulty adapting 20th century tactics to 21st century warfare.
D&D 5E Designing a fantasy army in 5th
- Thread starter RangerWickett
- Start date
Ware fare is responsive to technological advances, and usually in a much delayed way. It took a long time for nations to realize just how much gunpowder changed warfare, for example, and even now we are having difficulty adapting 20th century tactics to 21st century warfare.
S
Sunseeker
Guest
An army led by mages is going to be equipped with things to fight mages. I would not be surprised at such an army to have low-level casters running some kind of constant "detect magic" effect or have some device that performs a similar feat. Likewise, things that could create anti-magic zones would not be surprising either. The PC's "grappler" could easily fly head first into a detection field, become visible and then be grounded in a hot second. I would query, what's to stop the mage from simply shouting and screaming until detected? Can the grappler cast "silence" on the mage leader? Otherwise that'd be a different check to ensure you got the leader's mouth as well as arms.
Second, I would assume the mages are going to be using large amounts of illusions mostly to make their army more intimidating, but also to better conceal their leader (who has to travel with the army why? Wouldn't it be smarter to let the army go there, let the commanders fight the battle and then dimension door to the location when they're ready for the leader?). Their leader and much of their forces may not be where the party thinks it is, exist at all, or some of it could be hidden. In addition to these magical effects, if the leader is traveling on some kind of platform, it wouldn't surprise me if it was heavily warded, and if the grappler touches down on those wards, poof! turned to stone, or something.
If the army isn't traveling with escorts scouting ahead and alongside the army, they're a very poorly-prepared army. If the PCs are camping out not too far from the main force, they risk a high chance of bring discovered. Maybe the army is just that mean and is burning the forest down as the go, scorched earth is just a wonderfully simple strategy.
When it comes down to it, I think you really need to remember that these mages you've got leading the army are going to be both skilled in the art of war and also quite possibly some of the most intelligent people in the world. Now, this of course leads to faults as really smart villains obsess over details and do not like anything to be out of their control.
Second, I would assume the mages are going to be using large amounts of illusions mostly to make their army more intimidating, but also to better conceal their leader (who has to travel with the army why? Wouldn't it be smarter to let the army go there, let the commanders fight the battle and then dimension door to the location when they're ready for the leader?). Their leader and much of their forces may not be where the party thinks it is, exist at all, or some of it could be hidden. In addition to these magical effects, if the leader is traveling on some kind of platform, it wouldn't surprise me if it was heavily warded, and if the grappler touches down on those wards, poof! turned to stone, or something.
If the army isn't traveling with escorts scouting ahead and alongside the army, they're a very poorly-prepared army. If the PCs are camping out not too far from the main force, they risk a high chance of bring discovered. Maybe the army is just that mean and is burning the forest down as the go, scorched earth is just a wonderfully simple strategy.
When it comes down to it, I think you really need to remember that these mages you've got leading the army are going to be both skilled in the art of war and also quite possibly some of the most intelligent people in the world. Now, this of course leads to faults as really smart villains obsess over details and do not like anything to be out of their control.
aramis erak
Legend
Aside from Aerial scouting, the Somme (July - Nov of 1916) was essentially the same tactics as had been in use for the prior 30 years. And so, it was a meatgrinder for both sides, albeit somewhat reduced for the Allies. The Tanks didn't actually have much effect...
The US Revolutionary War (1775-1790, or 1775-1817, depending upon whom one asks within the historical profession) was essentially fought with tactics unchanged since about 1500: line up, advance to firing range, and put as many volleys of lead in as one can.
As a generalization, however, every war is fought with the tactics developed from the misuse of the tech of the prior war. GySgt Bradley beat that into our skulls in HS...
The D&D magic isn't going to radically alter the general paradigm unless it's rather more common than has been portrayed in the town building rules (especially those for 3.X)... simply not enough of them except for acolytes. Healing from battle will be much faster, but the actual battles will largely remain infantry vs infantry, with officers on mounts, and a few archers in support. (Keep in mind - a 10% archer force can break a non-archer-supported force quickly... as was repeatedly shown in the lowlands of Scotland. Picts vs Romans, English vs Scots during the "braveheart" era, and the Reiver era... )
What the presence of a wizard will do is open the formations up to skirmishers rather than blocks. Something that, generally, is a mark of the 20th C. (With some exceptions - the French & Indian war, the US 1870's indian wars, the Border Reivers of Scotland, certain late shogunate samurai...)
Smart guys leading not so smart forces usually results in epic failure to communicate, and or haring off from the established plan because they fail to coordinate with the higher-ups. See also General Pickett, Col William Custer, Col Andrew Jackson, Admiral Bull Halsey... Hell, Jackson lead a battle well over a month AFTER the armistice was signed... and still managed to get elected president.
It's been said that the best soldiers are only just bright enough to accomplish the common tasks, and the best officers only a bit smarter than that. Bright soldiers tend to disobey. Dim ones trust there's a valid reason for the task. You want reasonably smart, but not too smart, officers. For the same reasons. Smart enough to implement their part of the plan, not so smart as to protect their men when it doesn't seem to be working yet.
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Even on the Somme the French were using more sophisticated tactics and were successfully capturing positions with much lighter casualties than the English. Within a year, two at most, better offensive tactics than that had developed. While it was true that technology had changed enough for generals to be experimenting, they did experiment and they did come up with new and effective ways to do things - as well as new ways to mess up completely, of course. So I don't agree that armies were fighting with tactics developed in previous wars in World War One, and would say that the innovations practiced in other periods of change suggest something similar would be the case with tactics developing that take account of the types of force available.
I would think a starting point would be a medieval strategy and then contemplate what magic brings to the table. As stated previously, wizards are not all that common to begin with so some of their effect will be negligible at best. In combat, they can cast a limited number of high casualty spells or pinpoint targeted spells. Enemy wizards will probably counterspell any attempt to take out officers or leaders, so they are basically limited shot artillery (i.e.Big Bertha). The obvious counter to a fireball would be looser formations.
The two other area they would impact, to a large degree, are intelligence gathering and communication. Even modern armies struggle with this sometimes and historical armies constantly struggled in these areas (How would Gettysburg have turned out if Lee was able to get JEB Stuart to return more quickly?). While this impact of both these things would be huge, it would most likely be seen more at the strategic level than at the tactical level.
The last area of difference would be monster units. I don't see them as fulfilling a role all that much different than a variety of specialized historical units. 5 ogres = a tank platoon. Invisible creatures appearing in the middle of an enemy location = paratroopers. We know what effect those units had from a historical perspective, so we should be able to apply those same results to a fantasy army.
The two other area they would impact, to a large degree, are intelligence gathering and communication. Even modern armies struggle with this sometimes and historical armies constantly struggled in these areas (How would Gettysburg have turned out if Lee was able to get JEB Stuart to return more quickly?). While this impact of both these things would be huge, it would most likely be seen more at the strategic level than at the tactical level.
The last area of difference would be monster units. I don't see them as fulfilling a role all that much different than a variety of specialized historical units. 5 ogres = a tank platoon. Invisible creatures appearing in the middle of an enemy location = paratroopers. We know what effect those units had from a historical perspective, so we should be able to apply those same results to a fantasy army.
Capn Charlie
Explorer
I recently dealt with a similar situation as this to the mutual enjoyment of both my party and myself as DM.
Four PCs, a village of about 600 (currently gutted of its militia and guard, and basically any able bodied 15 to 50) and an advancing force of hobgoblins numbering 300 and more, with intermixed bugbear shocktroops and goblin warg rider cavalry and goblin fodder. (For a total headcount of just over 400)
The main body of the army marched along secured routes with fore and rear scouting elements, and goblin outriders along the flanks.
A vanguard element was composed of 1 hobgoblin officer, 4 bugbears, 3 warg riders, 12 regular infantry and 5 dedicated archers, 2 hobgoblin war shamans (cleric buffs, wizard nukes).
A main battle element was similar to a scouting element, but with roughly twice as many infantry, archers and mounted goblins.
Due to a successful enemy plan, the town (an important stopping point on a major trade way) was filled with mostly noncombatants, and had only a half dozen fighters. The town's defenders were at least 4 days away (two days to find them at top speed, and two days to get them back at a forced march, the nearest point of reinforcement was a four day's ride one way, and enemy force was only two days out.
The enemy force had to cross rough country, one river that had to be forded, and fairly narrow pass through the hills. Using the pass as a chokepoint, the party ambushed and narrowly defeated a scouting element, then the battle group sent to determine its fate, leaving them completely tapped out, and fleeing for their lives even in victory.
Enterprising characters found a cave lair of a trio of trolls and unleashed them on a second battle element the following day, which while successful only slowed the enemy advance who finally got word back of action at the pass, and pressed through with better magical support, sending the trolls and party fleeing.
The party skirmished with two more battle groups in the woods, and held them at the ford for a time, until weight of enemy fire forced them from their entrenched positions on the far side.
All told, the party managed to skirmish and inflict casualties totalling almost two thirds the enemy forces in the woods and hills, but with resources virtually gone, and time delayed too little, the remaining forces converged on the town, where the pcs fought desperately at hastily erected barricade at the town, holding one end of the city while the other half the forces penetrated deeply into the town, where the party had to confront them building to building.
The party involved was only 5th level, and the forces against them were vast, but since they did everything in their power to divide and defeat the enemy in detail, they finally won the day.
Four PCs, a village of about 600 (currently gutted of its militia and guard, and basically any able bodied 15 to 50) and an advancing force of hobgoblins numbering 300 and more, with intermixed bugbear shocktroops and goblin warg rider cavalry and goblin fodder. (For a total headcount of just over 400)
The main body of the army marched along secured routes with fore and rear scouting elements, and goblin outriders along the flanks.
A vanguard element was composed of 1 hobgoblin officer, 4 bugbears, 3 warg riders, 12 regular infantry and 5 dedicated archers, 2 hobgoblin war shamans (cleric buffs, wizard nukes).
A main battle element was similar to a scouting element, but with roughly twice as many infantry, archers and mounted goblins.
Due to a successful enemy plan, the town (an important stopping point on a major trade way) was filled with mostly noncombatants, and had only a half dozen fighters. The town's defenders were at least 4 days away (two days to find them at top speed, and two days to get them back at a forced march, the nearest point of reinforcement was a four day's ride one way, and enemy force was only two days out.
The enemy force had to cross rough country, one river that had to be forded, and fairly narrow pass through the hills. Using the pass as a chokepoint, the party ambushed and narrowly defeated a scouting element, then the battle group sent to determine its fate, leaving them completely tapped out, and fleeing for their lives even in victory.
Enterprising characters found a cave lair of a trio of trolls and unleashed them on a second battle element the following day, which while successful only slowed the enemy advance who finally got word back of action at the pass, and pressed through with better magical support, sending the trolls and party fleeing.
The party skirmished with two more battle groups in the woods, and held them at the ford for a time, until weight of enemy fire forced them from their entrenched positions on the far side.
All told, the party managed to skirmish and inflict casualties totalling almost two thirds the enemy forces in the woods and hills, but with resources virtually gone, and time delayed too little, the remaining forces converged on the town, where the pcs fought desperately at hastily erected barricade at the town, holding one end of the city while the other half the forces penetrated deeply into the town, where the party had to confront them building to building.
The party involved was only 5th level, and the forces against them were vast, but since they did everything in their power to divide and defeat the enemy in detail, they finally won the day.
RangerWickett
Legend
The premise here is that the party's village happens to be near where an ancient urn that holds a demon lord has been buried. There's a group of mid- to high-level spellcasters (cleric 13, transmuter 11, bard 11, evoker 7, enchanter 7, illusionist 7, abjurer 7) who are leading a conspiracy to overthrow the king and establish a magocracy, and they want this demon lord's magic to help.
The plan was to set up the town as a binding circle, then dig up the urn, open it, and offer the citizens of the town as sacrifices to appease the demon lord.
The party found out about the dig and got the urn themselves, then found a spy in town and figured out about the binding circle. They convinced the spy that the villains' plot was a terrible idea that would get tons of people killed, so the spy told them that a small army is on the way -- 100 soldiers, plus the mages in charge.
What I'm thinking is that the 100 soldiers are 80 3rd level eldritch knights, and 20 3rd level arcane tricksters (for those unfamiliar with 5e, these aren't prestige classes; they're just alternate styles of fighters and rogues). Plus they have one summoned xorn, two summoned erinyes (each with a wand of magic missiles) and a war mammoth (that's actually a stone golem). The tricksters are the forward scouting force, and the knights spend each night casting alarm around the perimeter of the camp. The mid-level mages have a few handy spells for crowds of soldiers (i.e., fireball), but aren't well equipped to deal with a guerrilla force.
We'll see what happens this coming Monday. I expect "Operation Bloodtalon" to result in an unconscious and captured bard-grappler. Which I suppose means I need to make stats for the demon lord Baphomet. . . .
The plan was to set up the town as a binding circle, then dig up the urn, open it, and offer the citizens of the town as sacrifices to appease the demon lord.
The party found out about the dig and got the urn themselves, then found a spy in town and figured out about the binding circle. They convinced the spy that the villains' plot was a terrible idea that would get tons of people killed, so the spy told them that a small army is on the way -- 100 soldiers, plus the mages in charge.
What I'm thinking is that the 100 soldiers are 80 3rd level eldritch knights, and 20 3rd level arcane tricksters (for those unfamiliar with 5e, these aren't prestige classes; they're just alternate styles of fighters and rogues). Plus they have one summoned xorn, two summoned erinyes (each with a wand of magic missiles) and a war mammoth (that's actually a stone golem). The tricksters are the forward scouting force, and the knights spend each night casting alarm around the perimeter of the camp. The mid-level mages have a few handy spells for crowds of soldiers (i.e., fireball), but aren't well equipped to deal with a guerrilla force.
We'll see what happens this coming Monday. I expect "Operation Bloodtalon" to result in an unconscious and captured bard-grappler. Which I suppose means I need to make stats for the demon lord Baphomet. . . .
MonsterEnvy
Legend
In D&D 5e those 100 would be the elite forces of an entire countries army. Making the force out of Scouts and guards would be better fitting with like 20 of them being the Eldritch Knights and Arcane Tricksters as their elites.
RangerWickett
Legend
Look at an orc. It has 15 hit points. That's on par with a 2nd level fighter. I put 3rd level as being 'decently well-trained.'
1st level fighters are untrained conscripts. 3rd level is a trained soldier. 5th would be veteran, and 7th would be elite, in my mind.
1st level fighters are untrained conscripts. 3rd level is a trained soldier. 5th would be veteran, and 7th would be elite, in my mind.
I concur with the above statement about this force very elite. Obviously, I don't know your campaign world's population & class level density, but it seems like this quite a powerful force to gather in a sleepy corner of the country/kingdom (I use sleepy because it sounds like your town and the surrounding area don't have anything remotely like this kind of force or power density). Have they been gathered from all over the kingdom? Where is there base of operations that began the march? How did they all get organized and trained to form a real army? These things don't happen in an instant or in a vacuum with no one aware. These questions may not matter as much to the immediate scenario, but they might have an over all bearing on the make up and tactics of this army. I would think that even such an elite force would have a large routine of servants/slaves, drovers, wagon drivers, cooks, armorers and such support staff to help with the mundane and day to day tasks (I doubt they could use magic for everything, and if they are using magic for everything it would have to weaken the offensive and defensive firepower considerably). They might even have some 'cannon fodder' peasant levies or plain mercenaries to fill out the ranks and undertake some military tasks that would be a waste for Eldritch Knights or Arcane Tricksters. Such forces, even if relatively well trained, take time to marshal, organize, coordinate and set in order for the days march and can be delayed when things go wrong, even with magic.
It is [MENTION=23464]ranger[/MENTION]Wicket 's campaign not a published adventure -- "reviewing" it like you would the latter is kind of rude IMO.
That said, I think the PCs are in for a world of hurt. The leading magic users should have no trouble learning that an ambush is coming and should be perfectly preapred for it. The troops are all spellcasters, which is going to bring some serious hurt. Don't get me wrong, I am all for it, but I think there is a chance that not only will the PCs have to flee, but the bad guys might succeed. I hope you have a plan for how the demon lord is going to enjoy his new earthly domain!
Quickleaf
Legend
Lots of good advice and ideas so far. Your bard PC will be in for an interesting time, that's for sure. I wonder what the rest of the party will be doing while the infiltration happens? Will be interested to hear which you use for your Monday game!RangerWickett said:
One more thought: What you basically have is a small army of spellcasters. If you're using 3rd-level Eldritch Knights & Arcane Tricksters as inspiration for these NPCs, then they all have access to 1st level abjurations/evocations and enchantments/illusions respectively. I'd be cautious with their spell selection because if the PCs meet a large force of them with, say, magic missile, then at least one PC will be taking a dirt nap (without a recourse of defense against the spells).
EDIT: Oh, and I'd create Baphomet based on a Goristro demon. You know, in case it comes up
Lots of good advice and ideas so far. Your bard PC will be in for an interesting time, that's for sure. I wonder what the rest of the party will be doing while the infiltration happens? Will be interested to hear which you use for your Monday game!
One more thought: What you basically have is a small army of spellcasters. If you're using 3rd-level Eldritch Knights & Arcane Tricksters as inspiration for these NPCs, then they all have access to 1st level abjurations/evocations and enchantments/illusions respectively. I'd be cautious with their spell selection because if the PCs meet a large force of them with, say, magic missile, then at least one PC will be taking a dirt nap (without a recourse of defense against the spells).
EDIT: Oh, and I'd create Baphomet based on a Goristro demon. You know, in case it comes up
In my head, these caster soldiers are all headhunted recruits (rather than indoctrinated cultists), so their specific capabilities vary a bit (while still fitting into an overall type that the would be wizard king prefers). For any given mook, I would create quick random charts for their known cantrips and spells -- not of the whole wizard list, but of an especially useful subset. I would also have some tables on hand to further develope with race and background any individual bad guy with which the PCs had extended interaction. Much more interesting with more potential for follow up encounters and adventures, IMO.
Thats false.
An army like this would fit the dark ages, but by that time you put D&D in no one used peseant levies (militias) any more as they were too weak and needed on the fields.
Instead armies consistet entirely out of trained mercenaries and knights, all of them being well armored as plate could be made easily in big quantities.
In D&D there will likely be mages among the mercenaries, mabe even whole companies of warcasters. After all, being a mage is a learned profession and does not require some rare gift.
Quartz
Hero
All those spellcasters plus 100 3rd level characters plus a few specials. Your party is 7th level. They're going to get creamed. Do they have any idea of the power of the enemy? Their only sensible options are to either take the urn (if possible) and run (with or without the villagers) or summon the demon lord themselves. And running is by far the more sensible option of those two.
The party is very clearly in over their capabilities. Getting as much of the town population on the move to safer locations, and getting the urn away from the enemy are both essential. Both will be very difficult, especially hiding the urn since the 13th level cleric will likely be divining the location periodically. Even a handful of the Tricksters or Eldritch knights could potentially take down a party member.
Some of the things I would expect as a party member facing this incoming army would be summoned and bound demons/devils/other entities accompanying the main force as defenders of the leaders. Scrolls and potions among the advanced force and outriders to assist communications with the main force, and bolster the scouts to delay incoming interference. Far advanced enemy scouts with access to invisibility and communications in case the population starts moving away which would signal awareness that the army is coming. They would also likely have some day and night aerial scouts among their familiars. Birds for day, bats for night.
Something useful for the party - watch for circling carrion birds in good sized groups - these often follow marching armies anticipating the upcoming feast. That gives the party a means of tracking the main force from a safer distance.
The only hope I can think of for stopping the evil army is if the party were to learn where the ritual formula is kept. Is it in someone's mind? Is it in a book or scroll? If the party can confirm this info then they can try to make a grab for that linchpin to destroy it and prevent the ritual from happening at all. Odds would be very long on success with all the alarms and guards, and other sorts of protection between them and the macguffin.
If they had more time I would have the towns people secretly digging tunnels out of town from places spies are unlikely to notice (a couple people digging out a new latrine would be common and not noteworthy for instance).
The enemy force will have a vast capacity for dealing with threats from the town's defenders. In fact, the 13th level priest may have Ressurrection, and Raise Dead available to bring back any important member of the enemy force the party manages to take down aside from himself.
This appears to be a Kobayashi Maru test. The party needs to change the parameters.
Some of the things I would expect as a party member facing this incoming army would be summoned and bound demons/devils/other entities accompanying the main force as defenders of the leaders. Scrolls and potions among the advanced force and outriders to assist communications with the main force, and bolster the scouts to delay incoming interference. Far advanced enemy scouts with access to invisibility and communications in case the population starts moving away which would signal awareness that the army is coming. They would also likely have some day and night aerial scouts among their familiars. Birds for day, bats for night.
Something useful for the party - watch for circling carrion birds in good sized groups - these often follow marching armies anticipating the upcoming feast. That gives the party a means of tracking the main force from a safer distance.
The only hope I can think of for stopping the evil army is if the party were to learn where the ritual formula is kept. Is it in someone's mind? Is it in a book or scroll? If the party can confirm this info then they can try to make a grab for that linchpin to destroy it and prevent the ritual from happening at all. Odds would be very long on success with all the alarms and guards, and other sorts of protection between them and the macguffin.
If they had more time I would have the towns people secretly digging tunnels out of town from places spies are unlikely to notice (a couple people digging out a new latrine would be common and not noteworthy for instance).
The enemy force will have a vast capacity for dealing with threats from the town's defenders. In fact, the 13th level priest may have Ressurrection, and Raise Dead available to bring back any important member of the enemy force the party manages to take down aside from himself.
This appears to be a Kobayashi Maru test. The party needs to change the parameters.
Quartz
Hero
But do they know that? If they prepare for a level-appropriate opposition, then they're going to get a very nasty surprise which they will likely not survive.
aramis erak
Legend
The US used levies right up to the 1820's. Technically, the concept remained in US law until the 1933...
The renaissance, by the way, starts in the 1400's in Italy. Italian city-states, including Venice, made use of tradesmen as troops right into the 18th C. Venice had the town watch duty rotate through the various guilds...
And what's the difference between peasant and young tradesman? Rural semi-unfree vs Urban semi-unfree.
SilentBoba
First Post
Is your goal to challenge the party or screw their plan royally and probably kill them? While I agree they shouldn't be able to just swoop in, grab the mage, and swoop out, thus breaking an entire army's morale, I also don't think you should punish their creativity if they still come up with some sort of way to take out the leader.
Is it terribly important to your story that the mage successfully perform the ritual? If so, try not to make it look so obvious as some folks have been suggesting that the party basically can't win.
Is it terribly important to your story that the mage successfully perform the ritual? If so, try not to make it look so obvious as some folks have been suggesting that the party basically can't win.
And yet no one used levies in the 100 years war. At least when the french resurgence began armies were all/mainly trained soldiers and mercenaries. And the italien states too made extensive use of mercenaries (Condottieri).
Mercenaries and standing troops (starting with the Janissaries) had training and their own equipment. Peseants had neither and had to tend the fields so that the nation doesn't starve next winter, thats why people stopped using levies.
If the players come up with a genius plan and have the luck on their side let them succeed. But imo do not leave open holes in the defenses specifically for the players to exploit or let the enemy turn a blind eye to what their plan is. They should not automatically have a chance for success just by being PCs. Play the army to the best of your abilities. If the players can't come up with a way to bypass their defenses, and that will be hard indeed, then they should fail and when they do not flee there should be the realistic chance of them being killed.
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