Detecting a charm spell with a failed save

[Alzrius]

The rules on magic are pretty clear about what the caster and target detect when the target makes his saving throw against a targeted spell; namely, that the victim knows someone tried to attack him with magic (but not how, unless it's obvious), and the caster knows the victim saved successfully.

However, I'm less certain about how to adjudicate spells effects when the victim fails their save. Take the old charm person spell. When the spell wears off, does the victim (presuming they have nothing to indicate the caster was a spellcaster or otherwise used magic) realize that their mind was magically tampered with? Or do they just believe they had some sort of lapse in judgment?

Are there any rules for this that I'm missing?

 

[Ranes]

I don't think you're missing anything. Did you know that Wizards recently ran the first in a series of articles on charm spells on the D&D web site? I don't recall that mentioning any rules in this regard but it might prove helpful.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well:

25 + spell level After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry.

 

[Alzrius]

I don't think you're missing anything. Did you know that Wizards recently ran the first in a series of articles on charm spells on the D&D web site? I don't recall that mentioning any rules in this regard but it might prove helpful.

I did forget that. Thanks, I'll keep an eye on it.

Well:

Originally Posted by SRD, Spellcraft Skill
25 + spell level After rolling a saving throw against a spell targeted on you, determine what that spell was. No action required. No retry.

Hmm, this is better, but not quite specifically what I wanted. Beyond issues of simply having Spellcraft, which is a trained only skill, this seems to be suggesting that it's used when you specifically know that a spell was cast on you, and you want to identify it (e.g. in the event of a successful save). What I'm trying to determine is if someone who was charmed would have cause to believe magic was used against them at all.

 

[CronoDekar]

This is nothing RAW, since I agree that it is ambiguous, but I tend to wing it when determining if the charmed person knows he was charmed. Mostly, it's dependent on the degree of change (a lifelong enemy of the charmer would almost certainly know, while someone who was simply Unfriendly may not), and how the charmer treated the charmee during the charm. Or in a nutshell, the more reasonable it would be for the charmee to assume that his change in attitude was simply because of natural changes, the less likely he'll notice the spell was ever there. Of course, other things could be a tip-off, like remembering that you Spellcrafted the spell charm person being targetted on you.

 

[irdeggman]

Here is the key text, IMO:

This charm makes a humanoid creature regard you as its trusted friend and ally (treat the target’s attitude as friendly). If the creature is currently being threatened or attacked by you or your allies, however, it receives a +5 bonus on its saving throw.


Now the charm person spell has some color words but it essentially shifts the NPCs attitude to "friendly". See the table under Diplomacy skill to find the results of this attitude.

Attitude stays at the given level until something is done to cause a change in it. Basically what the spell duration does is prevent any adverse adjustment of the attitude for the duration of the spell, pretty much regardless of outside influences (except for those listed under the spell which break it automatically).

This same effect can be accomplished via a successful Diplomacy check (spell is more effective).

So I can't see any reason why a character would know he was charmed - unless he was presented with some evidence to suggest it then he might make some check to realize what most likely happend (unless using the Spellcraft check list above - he would only theorize what had happened though).


This is not spefically stated in the RAW for the spell but since the spell sends you to the attitude (and hence the table) it can be put together from there.

 

[likuidice]

charm/spellcraft

isn't spellcraft a reaction to seeing or hearing the casting of a spell? so even if you are not targeted, you can tell what has been cast, for example the wizard casts mage armour, although it doesn't affect you, you can identify the effect of it being cast.
Also, although generally ruled as inadmissible, what happens if a character is charmed, but makes his spellcraft check at the point of casting, and knows that he has been hit by mind affecting magic that impairs his judgement? I reckon that the character would overlook it as an attempt by his new "friend" to help him see things in a new light.

 

[William_2]

I don’t think the spell affects memory or intelligence at all, at least after the fact. So, a target should vividly remember seeing someone casting a spell at them, if they did. Their own behavior while charmed will more than likely tip them off to the fact that they were the victim of a spell, in my view.
If a character cast the spell without being noticed, and used it only to walk by someone and say hello, perhaps the target would suspect nothing. Every time I have seen it used in a game, though, I always thought that afterwards the target would think: “Why did I do that?! They must have messed with my head!”