Developer's Roundtable: Mystic Theurge

[Remathilis]

My opnion is that you couldn't take true necro or geo levels and gain MT levels with it.

Why?

One: Mystic Theurge is not a spellcasting class on its own. It has no spell list of its own, no rules of arcane/divine to follow on its own, no spell casting stat of its own, and does not grant spell slots on its own. It improves another spellcasting class.

Assassin is a good example of a spellcasting prc the geomancer could improve spellcasting of, loremaster is one that geomancer could not.

 

[Remathilis]

Re: Arcane and Divine caster levels should not stack

I suggest something like a pre-req of Iron Will (it takes a tough mind to master such disparate magic systems), and class features of d4 hp, wizard BAB, good Will save only.

-z

It already has d4 hp, wizard bab, and good will save only.

 

[Najo]

Spell levels stacking

Actaully the game looks at magic like this:

Dispelling, Spell Resistance and Item Creation do not care where the spell comes from (whether Divine or Arcane). I am basically advocating that the spell slots and the spell list those spots use are the divine or arcane part and determine if the class is divine or arcane. Then the caster level is treated as you overall connection and understanding of magic. So a wizard who decides to become a cleric still gets stronger in his magic, but he leaves his arcane studies (his spells) where they were and begins developing his connection with his god (in the form of is cleric levels and the spells assocaited with them). He is still learning about magic, using magic and improving his previous magical power (ie his casterlevel improves from stacking). But he does not learn anymore arcane spells until he returns to an arcane class.

How does this go against D&D's divine and arcane magic. If anything it completely solves the problem the Mystic Theurge is attempting to deal with.

It even gives you the ability to multi class into many caster classes, still improving your generic/ shared abilties but only knowning the lowest levels of spells and class abilities from the class you dabbled in.

In fact the cleric 10/ wizard 10 idea with stacked caster levels is how the Mystic Theruge should be. It has only up to level 5 spells but it casts as a level 20 caster. It can contend with the same CRs (which the mystic theurge can't) and its still getting more lower level spells and diversity of abilties. Not to mention it keeps all of the clerics abilities so it is even more true to th concept of a mystic theurge.

 

[green slime]

Gaining more low level spells doesn't compensate for the loss of a large number of high level spells.

10 Divine /10 Arcane spellcasters wouldn't be seen, even with stacking caster levels for determining SR. The suckage value is still too great

Those low level spells are very easily replicated by minor magical items.

Casting 5 5th level arcane spells as well as 5 5th level divine spells in no way compensates for being able to cast 4+ 9th level spells. IMO.

 

[officeronin]

What if we just took a look at the spellcasters as big bags of scrolls -- you know, counted the GP of all their spells as if they were scrolls (spell level x caster level x 25 g.p.) and charted them in Excel.

With everything even, the cleric is always more powerful (due to the domain bonus spell). The cleric always has more raw spell-power, in addition to armor. The theurge is slightly ahead of the wizard from levels 12 to 19, maxing at level 16, mostly due to the access of domain spells.

Considering the lack of feats and skill choices and familiar, I think the wizard works better. Also, this is the worst-case scenario.

If the wizard (and thus the theurge) is a specialist, the wizard pulls equal to the cleric, and the theurge is behind all the way. Same if the arcane portion is a sorcerer or bard or the divine portion is a druid.

Chart it out!

OfficeRonin

 

[DonAdam]

The problem with charting is that the sorc would evaluate as far more powerful than the wizard.

Then again, a sorc is a walking wand, so maybe you could do something with that...

 

[Zaruthustran]

Re: Re: Arcane and Divine caster levels should not stack

It already has d4 hp, wizard bab, and good will save only.

Right; adding a feat pre-req of Iron Will is only a small change. Put another way: I'm pretty happy with the MT as written.

-z

 

[Remathilis]

Re: Re: Re: Arcane and Divine caster levels should not stack

Right; adding a feat pre-req of Iron Will is only a small change. Put another way: I'm pretty happy with the MT as written.

-z

Ok, I thought we weren't looking at the same PrC.

My personal opinion is the Gez is right, remove levels 4 and 8 from the equation (thus, making them 5 levels suckier and limited to 7th/7th or 8th/6th) and your cooking with gas.

However, I think those levels (4 and 8) should grant a special power. I was considering allowing arcane spells to swap for healing at 8th, and use divine focus instead of arcane material component (when applicable) at 4th. Too much?