Developer's Roundtable: Mystic Theurge

[Mercule]

Mercule, I like this idea. I don't think we need a separate spells per day table, though - just use the existing spells per day of the individual classes. So, a Wiz10/Clr10 has the spells per day of a Wiz10 and a Clr10, but casts all his spells as a 20th level spellcaster.

Thanks. I was afraid I'd gotten long-winded enough that people might skip my post.

I tend to think the unified CL stat is the right direction to head in -- and that's my main point. The rest of the message was a bunch of half-baked ideas on how it might work. A first draft, if you will.

I think the essential bits are:
1) It must be simple to use. Something on the order of calculating saves and BAB. Sure, there's some math, but it's easy. No one wants to have to whip out FOIL from Algebra, though.
2) A single-classed Cleric, Wizard, etc. should be a better Cleric, Wizard, etc. than a multiclass caster is. I don't know whether the balancing factor should be damage, save DC, spell book/list, or something else, but there needs to be something.


FWIW, I tend to agree with the others who are saying that PrCs should not be pure mechanics. There doesn't have to be much there, but it should play to some vague archetype. The MTh doesn't do jack to differentiate itself from a Wizard/Cleric. Regardless of the power balance, that makes it bad design, IMHO.

Since the balance is questionable, at best, the MTh is a doubly poor class.

 

[Dante Inferno]

Am I the only one that noticed this?

Ok, did anyone else pick up on this?


"{Andy: Not to be flip, but that's the point. The character gives away his most powerful spells in order to get a bunch of weaker ones.}
*snip*

Reynolds: Don't sidetrack, dude. If having lots of spells compared to higher level spells is fine, then the wiz10/clr10 is fine as it is and you don't need to make a special prestige class that makes it even better."


Umm...he does know that the wiz10/clr10 has **less** total spells than a straight cleric (13 less in fact) and only *1* more spell than a straight wizard right? Apparently not, because in the spreadsheet he posted to demonstrate the relative power levels of the mystic theurge, the traditional multi and the pure classes he's got things all messed up...

Starting at 9th level in the "Mystic theurge ASAP" section he compares

9th level Cleric
9th level Wizard
3 cl / 3 wiz / 3 Mt
and....
5th level Cleric / 6th level Wizard

it only gets worse from there....he compares the 20th level characters to a 16th level cleric / 16th level wizard (32nd level character).

The "Mystic Theurge 11th" section is nearly as inaccurate, giving the "optimal multiclass" 29 character levels to compare to the 20th level straight classes and prestige class.

My intent is not to pick anything apart, but this quote and the radically inaccurate information provided in the spreadsheet make me wonder if Reynolds thinks that the multiclassed spellcaster is balanced as is because he is making some basic mathematical error. I know that he is one of the designers, but that doesnt change the fact that both his statement about this subject and the information that he has provided are just plain wrong.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

4) The mystic theurge threatens to weaken or overly strengthen the power balance of all previousily designed spell casting prestige classes. A perfect example using the true necromancer from tome of blood: wiz 6/ 3 clr/ 10 mt / 1 TrN. This class can cast as a Wiz 17/ clr 13 still (jsut like the wiz 7/ 3 clr/ 10 mt can), but its necromancy and death domain spells are cast as a level 30 spellcaster. This class experiences no loss in spell selection and gains a whole school at 10 levels higher than it should.

The benefits are powerful. I think people are over-reacting, however - it's illusory. Sitting next to a multi-classed spellcaster (a pebble), the mystic theurge (a fist-sized rock) looks a lot bigger.

I'm more worried about the abuse potential of mixing spellcaster levels like that - I expect in a few months people will be posting Tenser's Transformation/Divine Favor/Divine Power combos!

As for the True Necromancer, it is an older 3.0 prestige class. It's weak. In fact, there are lots of 3.0 (and perhaps 3.5 ) prestige classes that are underpowered, overpowered, or just plain broken (by broken I mean poorly designed, not necessarily overpowered), so I don't get upset if some of those prestige classes disappear. I can certainly see why people wouldn't want to give up a prestige class, however.

5) Any player who wishes to multiclass into cleric and wizard more than 3 levels each is foolish not to take this class, in turn meaning that the class causes pigeon holeing. It was built to make this multiclass combination optimal and in turn it is the most powerful option available which most liekly means it becomes the only option.

That isn't necessarily a bad thing. If the MT is balanced (and I can't tell without testing it for myself) then I won't have any problems with that. WotC has already admitted it's a band-aid solution, and since 3.5 is a revision, not a new edition, they won't be making fundamental changes like that.

 

[Remathilis]

My comment relates to Monte's on spell level vs. caster level.

What is the cost of low-level magic to high level magic?

Is having 15 first level spells worth 5 6th level spells?

Can Someone packing (alot) of 5th level spells stand against a caster of 9th level spells?

What spell level limit do you place on versatility?

The Mystic Theurge remedies the 5th/5th vs. 9th spell imbalance by raising the bar of max spell level. However, how much higher does it need to be to make an effective character?

6th/6th? 7th/7th? 8th/8th?

A caster, wielding 7th/7th level spells, would probably be a good match for a caster with 9th. 6th/6th is too low, only a minor help from 5/5. 8/8 (the current class) is too little a trade off IMHO.

The reason Geomancer and True Necromancer failed for me was, at the end, I was still flinging 5th level magic. Sure, I could do some wonders with it, but it was still only fifth. In True Necro, I lost losts of great high-level necromancy spells (Wail of the Banshee, Horrid Wilting) that is the reason to get a high level necro.
By the same token, Dragon Disciple (with bonus spell slots) is useless because I'm never getting more spells, just more slots (Magic Missile Machine, here I come.)

Obviously, we need some fix, and revising the Multi-classing rules is out of the picture. I've liked Gez's Idea of removing two levels from the progresson of Mystic Theurge, limiting him to 7/7 or 8/6 spell levels (and a Caster Level of 15th in both classes).

But where do you draw the line of power vs. versatility?

 

[I'm A Banana]

I think my option still seems to be the simplest solution...

Pay 2 spells/day from one spell level of one class (say, 0-level Wizard spells) to gain one spell/day of one spell level higher in the other class (say, 1st-level Cleric spells). The amount you gain cannot exceed the amount a normal single-classed character of your character level could get EXCLUDING DOMAIN SPELLS.

At this rate, you can mix and match how much versatility you want. You'll never be as good as a straight spellcaster, but you can become nearly as good, and still retain your few abilities.


HONESTLY, the only way from the ground-up to fix this easily is to give wizards and sorcerers something to look at when they level up OTHER than spells (and to perhaps give Clerics a little more). This requires a bit of an overhaul (bumping up the power level a bit), but it would allow you to stack, say, at 1/2 caster level rates (so that every two levels in a spellcasting class, you can also gain one for spellcasting only in another spellcasting class you have).

I know WotC won't do this....any chance we can get this from any 3rd party? Ryan? EN Publishing perchance?

 

[Remathilis]

Honestly, the best way to combine caster levels is to use a spell point system, with points that stack and limits on what kind/level of spells based on caster level.

Doesn't stop the problem the Theurgist is fixing, max spell level.

I would rather cast a standard 20th level wizard array of spells than a million 1st level spells from both cleric and wizard lists.

 

[Bendris Noulg]

I know WotC won't do this....any chance we can get this from any 3rd party? Ryan? EN Publishing perchance?

Write it up and submit it.

 

[smetzger]

The problem I see with the class is that the Prereqs are the only balancing factor. This results in a 'sweet spot' where the class is balanced, outside of this 'sweet spot' the class (or leading up to taking the class) is too weak or too strong. In some respect this is how most prestige classes work, however the MT hits you smack in the face with this realization and uterly depends on it. The only real debate is how big this 'sweet spot' is.

Ok, here is an example of an overly powerful character:
Cleric 20/ Wizard 20/ MT 10.

And here is an example of an underpowered character:
Cleric 3/ Wizard 3/ MT 1

Somewhere in between is the 'sweet spot' where the character is balanced against his peers.

 

[takyris]

Not to throw a wrench into things with yet another side discussion, but I thought it might be worth considering that spellcasting is already going to be a LOT different in 3.5 due to the revision of Haste. Barring Quicken Spell, nobody will be casting two spells per round anymore.

I've noticed while playing in higher-level campaigns that the fights get really short, barring exceptional circumstances. Any fight that took more than one game-minute (10 rounds) was exceptionally long -- and many big nasty fights lasted three rounds or less, working along the lines of:

Round 1:
Wizard: Mass Haste, Biggest Damaging Spell or Monster-Ability-Neutralizer

Cleric: (hasted) Two Biggest Damaging Spells (Flame Strikes, Blade Barriers)

Round 2:
Wizard: Possible buff spell, Big Damaging Spell

Cleric: Possible cure spell, Big Damaging Spell

And so forth. Because of the "effectively goes twice" nature of Hasted spellcasters, the best way to win a fight was to throw all your biggest stuff at the monster before it had a chance to really react. In that gaming system, a Clr/Wiz is normally at a good-sized disadvantage, since his biggest stuff is weaker than the biggest stuff of a straight wizard or cleric. Around Round 7 of the combat, this character would start to get useful, as flexibility becomes more important and as the straight-classed characters begin to run out of their coolest stuff.

Now consider 3.5 -- where spellcasters get one spell per round. In THIS system, the biggest stuff takes longer to get into the field. Your four biggest spells don't get cast until round four, instead of round two, and the monster has had extra rounds to react -- moving behind cover, moving in close to the spellcasters to make area-effect spells problematic, and so on.

In 3.5, the straight-class wizard pulls somewhat further ahead of the wiz/clr. The wiz/clr benefits slightly, because the fact that the monster gets more rounds to act before all the big spells have been cast at it means that things are likely to become more unpredictable -- and in unpredictable situations, flexibility is better than specialization. But the straight-class wizard still has higher-level spells to work with, and now, the wizard and the wiz/clr don't become of equal utility until at least round 10 or 12.

Because it now takes wizards and clerics longer to burn through their best spells, multiclass wiz/clrs are made effectively even weaker by comparison -- since they become more useful once the straight-class wizard has gotten rid of his best spells (while the multiclass character has more spells of lower level).

In that light, 3.5 makes mutliclass spellcasters weaker than they already are. Therefore, the Mystic Theurge, by making them more powerful, isn't overpowering things as much as bringing the power balance back to a better place.

Probably used more words than I needed, but such is often the case in Internet discussion.

-tacky

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Well, but there is still a problem with this example - Cleric/Druid still sucks in 3.5, since he can`t use the Mystic Theurge, and the problem, that a Cleric10/Wizard10 is not as powerful as a wizard20 (and not as powerful as a Wizard3/Cleric3/Mystic Theurge) is still there...

A fix for multiclassing spellcasters in general might be that caster levels stack at least for purposes of spell effects and spell resistance. (A Wizard8/Cleric 12 can heal 1d6+20 hp with a Healing Circle and his Fireball deals 10d6 points of damage, his Flamestrike 20d6, and his Magic Missile creates 5 missiles each at 1d4+1, and he breakes any spell resistance up to 21...)

This is a relatively fair basis. Now, what to do with spell slots, is a bit more difficult, though Cleric and Wizards are actually easy - they use the same progression. Sorcerer/Cleric or Sorcerer/Wizard or even Bard/anything is more difficult...

Oh, by the way, if I recall correctly, a Mystic Theurge can cast 9th level spell at 20th level, even if only in one class. (9 Level spells in one and 7th in the other). Okay, he can continue to split classes after the 10th level of MyTh, but not neccessarily...

Mustrum Ridcully