Developer's Roundtable: Mystic Theurge

[Brown Jenkin]

Isn't one of the problems not whether the MT is broken or not, but the perception by a large number of people that he is. If the MT was a 3.0 PrC that recieved this much controversy wouldn't it be on the list of things to change for 3.5. Somehow anything that anyone ever complained about got changed for 3.5 but as soon as a new 3.5 rule comes out that recieves this much outcry the response seems to be prove to us it is broken before we will consider changing it.

 

[Mercule]

Okay, I need a rules question answered:

When a class, like the Geomancer (just to pick one), says that it gains "+1 level of existing class", does that only apply to a base class, or does it apply to prestige classes, as well?

Where I'm going with this, is could you do 3 Wiz, 3 Clr, 1 MTh, and then start in Geomancer, saying "The caster level I'm gaining is Mystic Theurge"? If so, the MTh is an extremely scary class, especially when you look at some of the Defenders of the Faith PrCs that have better hit dice than d4. Even the Arcane Trickster could be worth the three level dive, if you chose a god with the Trickery domain.

 

[Someone]

How does "+1 spellcasting level" prestige classes interact with MTh? Example, wizard 3/clr3/Mth 2 becomes True Necromancer 1 (at two class levels before it was designed to be available!) Can he assing the +1 level to Mystic Theurge and thus increase both spellcasting levels (getting the only benefit from Mystic T) and also get the benefits of the True Necromancer class?

 

[Someone]

, we posted the same question at the same time.

Minor point, but edited to not circumvent language filter. - Henry

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I asked custserv... they said I had to wait. Fair enough.

I don't think you would gain 2 caster levels per level if you took a spellcasting prestige class after you took Mystic Theurge - you gain spellcaster levels as a base class.

Anyway, I don't think players or NPCs should ever take more than one prestige class, even if one of the PrCs is generic. In other words, I did not like the example of Szass Tam, the Red Wizard/Archmage. Red Wizards have their own way of doing magic.

 

[kenjib]

Isn't one of the problems not whether the MT is broken or not, but the perception by a large number of people that he is. If the MT was a 3.0 PrC that recieved this much controversy wouldn't it be on the list of things to change for 3.5. Somehow anything that anyone ever complained about got changed for 3.5 but as soon as a new 3.5 rule comes out that recieves this much outcry the response seems to be prove to us it is broken before we will consider changing it.

That's a really good point. Isn't the issue of whether it's mechanically balanced secondary to the issue of whether or not it makes the game more enjoyable to the largest number of people? Why introduce something so controversial and with the potential of quickly becoming one of the most houseruled items in the game -- even more than the ranger?

 

[Skaros]

I asked custserv... they said I had to wait. Fair enough.

I don't think you would gain 2 caster levels per level if you took a spellcasting prestige class after you took Mystic Theurge - you gain spellcaster levels as a base class.

Anyway, I don't think players or NPCs should ever take more than one prestige class, even if one of the PrCs is generic. In other words, I did not like the example of Szass Tam, the Red Wizard/Archmage. Red Wizards have their own way of doing magic.

I have no problem with multiple prestige classes, particularly with the example you gave. If a Red Wizard wants to learn the secrets of the arch-mages, well, that makes sense to me that they would desire to do so.

Of course, once the PrC's are adapted to specific campaign worlds, all bets are off...

 

[drothgery]

I asked custserv... they said I had to wait. Fair enough.

I don't think you would gain 2 caster levels per level if you took a spellcasting prestige class after you took Mystic Theurge - you gain spellcaster levels as a base class.

So you'd say that anyone that gained spellcasting as part of a PrC (most notably Assassins) couldn't improve spellcasting with another PrC?

 

[drnuncheon]

I asked custserv... they said I had to wait. Fair enough.

I don't think you would gain 2 caster levels per level if you took a spellcasting prestige class after you took Mystic Theurge - you gain spellcaster levels as a base class.

Right. You can't add to your Mystic Theurge caster level because you don't have a Mystic Theurge caster level. You have a Wizard caster level and a Cleric caster level (or whatever).

J

 

[Zaruthustran]

Arcane and Divine caster levels should not stack

In response to an ealier post advocating stacking spell caster level for all spellcasting classes:

The problem with this idea is that D&D makes a clear mechanical distinction between divine and arcane spells: arcane spell failure chance for armor, holy symbol focus for divine. It also makes a clear flavor distinction: arcane spell power comes from an undefined "force", divine spell power comes from channeling a diety.

Stacking arcane and spellcasting levels doesn't make sense. It'd be like stacking mechanical engineer and computer engineer levels--or stacking Basketball levels with hockey levels. Both may deal with the same subject, but rely on totally different skill sets.

Stacking spellcaster levels within Arcane or Divine makes sense. A 3cleric/3druid should cast as a 6th level caster. Same for bard/sorceror, or cleric/holy liberator, or what have you. But divine caster levels should not stack with arcane caster levels.

That said, one of the reasons prestige classes exist is to break the rules. So I can see a prestige class like the Mystic Theurge, that allows a viable arcane/divine caster. But the price needs to be a bit higher. After all, the character is mastering two completely different magic systems.

I suggest something like a pre-req of Iron Will (it takes a tough mind to master such disparate magic systems), and class features of d4 hp, wizard BAB, good Will save only.

-z