Devil worship as a brand

[DMZ2112]

I know a few people who claim that the Lord of the Rings movies are silly and "all about fairies", but love Game of Thrones because it's more realistic.

What tipped me off about the greater realism in Game of Thrones was all the dragons.

 

[Will Doyle]

What tipped me off about the greater realism in Game of Thrones was all the dragons.

I know. And the zombies. But I've spoken to a lot of people who just seem to bypass that.

 

[TerraDave]

I'm not sure that I'd call some of the earliest stuff "adult oriented". With all due respect to the game's origins, it's often 'juvenile faux-adult' mixed with 'titillate teenage boys'. It found a market and it worked it well, but let's not call it mature themed. The demons and devils at the time were things to beat up and steal their stuff, not godless abominations capable of actually disturbing players. IMO it wasn't the actual content of the game at the time that seemed to dredge up popular, misguided attention to D&D, it was just the cultural baggage associated with the words demon and devil.

The mid/late 2e material on the fiends was IMO incredibly darker and more adult oriented than anything in 1e, with 3e and onwards building on that (varying by author in how successful it did so).

It was almost certainly "titilate other wargamers" who were often adults, with the teenage boys as a bonus. The game at that time did not condescend or pander, for example in its writing style. It did try to be evocative, and was clearly successful enough to, along with some tragedies that where inappropriately linked to the game, to make it the massive phenomenon it would become.

From a later point of view, 1E and OD&D could seem minimalistic and rough around the edges. For some of us that is part of its charm. I don't think it makes it more or less adult.

For 2E, we do know that it was sanitized and through art and writting style aimed at a "young adult" audience and meant to be more mom friendly. We know that certain individuals in the company certainly did condescend and pander. Though the biggest problem with it was a risk averse write by committee style that could make it really dull.

There where no demons or devils in the core 2E books. They start to come back with planescape, but with those other names, and there is still no Orcus, no Demogorgan, no Asmodeus, ect in early Planescape.

So I don't think its really a fair comparison. Sure, decades after it launched, someone may have written a descent if obscure supplement on fiends for D&D. You hope there would be progress, but that doesn't somehow make 2E, or even most of 3E, more "adult".

 

[DMZ2112]

I know. And the zombies. But I've spoken to a lot of people who just seem to bypass that.

I'm telling you, it's all the boobs. More boobs = more real. I don't think that's on Wikipedia's list of cognitive biases, but it absolutely should be.

 

[kettite]

If marketing to adults I'd publish one hardcover, max 256 pages, complete game, streamlined system. "Dungeons and Dragons" core rulebook one and done. Commercials/advertisements would focus on adults sitting around telling an exciting story. A nice game night with friends. Easy to learn, easy to play, unlock your imagination and take a few hours away from your regular responsibilities (children, career, etc). Sure, television and movies are fun, but don't you want to tell your own stories?

As a business model I don't know if it's any good. I just think if you say "Here's 920 pages of rulebooks to read first..." you'll have lost 90% of your intended market (adults, people over 25 for arguments sake).

 

[Morrus]

If marketing to adults I'd publish one hardcover, max 256 pages, complete game, streamlined system. "Dungeons and Dragons" core rulebook one and done. Commercials/advertisements would focus on adults sitting around telling an exciting story. A nice game night with friends. Easy to learn, easy to play, unlock your imagination and take a few hours away from your regular responsibilities (children, career, etc). Sure, television and movies are fun, but don't you want to tell your own stories?

As a business model I don't know if it's any good. I just think if you say "Here's 920 pages of rulebooks to read first..." you'll have lost 90% of your intended market (adults, people over 25 for arguments sake).

The problem with only selling one books is that you only sell one book.

 

[Umbran]

Why not market it as the grown-up game, not target it at the kids?

Because, for the most part, grown ups don't play a lot of games! We live in a culture where adults don't engage in play very much, I'm afraid.

D&D, and RPGs in general, are a hobby that chews up huge amounts of time, and requires coordination to get the same people around repeatedly for long stretches of time. This will be a hard sell for anyone who isn't already into the game, especially trying to put together a whole group - GM and players - who aren't already familiar with the game.

People still in school generally still have those swaths of free time, so adolescents, teens, and college students are still easy to introduce into the game - and once hooked, they're likely to continue to take the effort to carve out that time. Get them young, then you can keep them for decades.

Now, this is different from adjusting the marketing to make it *seem* adult - because the one thing young folks usually want are "mature" things. But marketing to the young by claiming mature status is not the same as actually marketing to that older audience.

 

[Ahnehnois]

I'm telling you, it's all the boobs. More boobs = more real.

They are real. And if you were an race that only learned about the world through watching US network television, you would not know that the human female has nipples. Pay cable is teaching us something important!

 

[Morrus]

Now, this is different from adjusting the marketing to make it *seem* adult - because the one thing young folks usually want are "mature" things. But marketing to the young by claiming mature status is not the same as actually marketing to that older audience.

That's a very good point, and probably describes what I mean more succinctly!

 

[kettite]

The problem with only selling one books is that you only sell one book.

You can have a publishing plan with multiple titles, but without a leader to draw these hypothetical adults in, a massive library of titles is going to scare people away because it requires too much immersion. Part of the popularity of any tv show, beyond the actual content, is it's easily digested. One hour increments. With the availability of digital streaming, and cloud technology, people are free to dive into those shows at their own timing. "This show looks interesting honey, let's give the first episode a try this weekend." As opposed to "This game seems fun, I'd like to pretend to be a sword wielding knight and kill me some demons, how do I get started... really? That's an awful lot of pages."

Now, if as Umbran said, you want to market the game to "seem" more mature so that it appeals to a wider swath of youth... that's a slippery slope. When a company tries too hard it comes of as desperately trying to appeal to the current cultural aesthetic. If you aren't at the forefront of a pop-culture wave, you wreak of pandering. Kids hate the pandering. Is it a matter of highlighting different aspects of the game through the art? A greater emphasis on demons, demons threatening children, adventurers beings seduced by succubi? I'd think this would alienate the crowd typically drawn to D&D and perhaps enticing some future Bro's to give it a try.