Devils and Gate

[Kae'Yoss]

Why Gate, when Summoning will do? Perhaps they don't have access to the appropriate Summon spell.

They do have access to a special spell-like ability which works like a summon monster spell.

If they dont have access, "monster acts immediately, and attacks your enemies to the best of its ability" is entirely what they would do.

If they do have access to appropriate Summoning magics, there is no reason to utilize Gate, unless the Devil wants more than a few rounds worth of assistance.

Well just for the record, here you go:

PHB 208 - "If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from the called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promsed favor or reward. In general, a gift of 100 gp per HD of of the called creature is reasonable. (Unfortunately, some creature want their payment in "livestock" rather than coin , which may involve complications.)"

Just for the record, here we go:
Monster Manual, Page 43, as well as Page 50, Summon Tanar'ri or Summon Bateezu: "....can summon other tanar'ri/bateezu much as though casting a summon monster spell.....Summoned creatures automatically return whence they came after 1 hour...."

Why would they bother with gate spells when they can use their innate abilities? Especially since they usually don't have access to gate.

And your reference about livestock doesn't apply anyway. Payment is to be rendered after the deed is done. And they usually want that "livestock" alive. And I really don't think they meant chickens. Virgins, children or innocent people are far more likely

Not only do I believe I am technically correct

Not if we still speak about the innate abilities to summon other fiends.

, but from a creating believeable/interesting encounters as well.

Fer the most part, Gating in other creatures won't break Invis.

Sometimes(perhaps rarely) it will.

Occasionally, it may be necessary to 'drop' invis to effectively lead those Gated in.

I think it is sufficient to call the fiend, which is done vocally. They cannot resist anyway, and if they can, they probably won't have to much problems with invisibility.

The only thing I'm saying, I suppose, is that I am not incorrect when I claimed conditional. Frankly I'm suprised that so many people seemed determined to prove me wrong on this point.

Perhaps they didn't like the way you answered.

Normally, I wouldn't bother to go to these lengths to explain my stance, but JC's surgical strike rules snipe kinda 'Got my Irish up'.
"Daddy, look I drew you a Horsey!"
"One of the eyes is crossed. Here, look at a real picture."

Yes, that's what I meant.

This whole thing may be moot, since according to MM 1, it doesn't seem that Devils have the Gate ability anymore(unless they have sufficient actual wizard levels). They have a simple Summon Baatezu(sp) ability, which works "...much as though casting a Summon Monster spell,..."

Completely right. It's no gate. It's a simple summoning. It may be a good Idea to consult the relevant rulebooks (of the current edition of the rules, not a former one, since much has changed since AD&D 2e, for what we all can be happy) before stating stuff and getting funny at people.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

To wrap it all up nicely

Is there any info out there on how the process works on how a Devil can bring in (gate) another Devil?

The Monster Manual describes the relevant abilities, Summon Tanar'ri and Summon Baatezu, on page 43 and 50, respectively. Essentially it works like the summon monster spells, but with a chance of failure and the summoned creatures stay for up to 1 hour.

How long does it take?

Since it works like summon monster, I'm inclined to say one full round.

If the Devil is invisible, does it become visible after bringing in another Devil?

No, since summoning doesn't harm anyone directly.

Do the new Devils always serve?

I think yes. But the above-mentioned abilities state that such a summoning leaves the summoner beholden to the summoned, so fiends don't use that ability lightly.

 

[Zentermi]

Whee!

The original question was Gate(apple). All corrections are attempting to prove me wrong on the assumption that I was talking about Summoning(orange).

"Zentermi is wrong because oranges don't act that way"

Sorry, I wasn't talking about oranges, I was talking about apples.

KaeYoss said:

"Not if we still speak about the innate abilities to summon other fiends."

I was never referring to that.

Original question:

Is there any info out there on how the process works on how a Devil can bring in (gate) another Devil?

If the Devil is invisible, does it become visible after bringing in another Devil?

Is the Summon descriptor anywhere in there?

If the original response had been something along the lines of, "Ya know, Demons and Devils really don't Gate very much anymore, they have a new specialized ability Summon Tanaari/Baatezu. Maybe you should check it out." My response would have likely been, "really? cool. I will." Implying I don't know how gate works... well, we see the result.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

He got it wrong in the first post. I think he thought that fiends gate other fiends. But he clearly referred to the innate abilities of fiends. That works like summon monster.

BTW: Your assumptions about gate aren't correct, either. You don't have to become visible in order to use gate with its call funktion.

If you only want the creature to fight your enemy, it's usually an immediate task. This needs no payment of any kind. You just order it to do so, and it obeys. The creature won't care whether its master is invisible, or surrounded by a halo of blazing light. It obays, because the spell gives you control over it. And anything you cannot control won't have problems with invisibility, since it will have at least 35 HD (assuming you call a single creature, not several weaker ones) or is a unique being or even a deity. They probably can smell your power and are above judging the power of a being by it's visible appearance.
If you have a more extensive service in mind, you do make a deal with the creature, and offer some sort of payment. But that won't be due before completion of the service. And, as I said before: The usually want live payment.

So there's no need to end invisibility with a gate spell. Especially not to "lead the gated one in", since we have the spell for that, after all.

So you are technically incorrect, and the encounters where they drop their invisibility aren't more believable/ interesting. The spell provides you with control over most of the creatures you call, without any need to bully the gated creature whatsoever, and if you cannot control the being, you better hide anyway, for your appearance will most likely be not so intimidating to the gated creature. Your "witty" comments about oranges or apples, or about horses won't help you with your argument at all.

 

[andargor]

My take:
Q - If the Devil is invisible, does it become visible after bringing in another Devil?
A - Conditional. The summoning may not be an attack. The summoner may chose to dispel their invisibility(if their Gated allies do not See Invisible) to enforce their will.

Just to beat on a dead horse. He isn't even undead. But anyway.

I did get the feeling that you were saying that summoning (either the spell or Sp ability) would break Invisibility under certain conditions with the use of "may" in that phrase. Which would be incorrect.

Very rule lawyery, I know. That's it. That's all I have to say.

Andargor (who makes an Expeditious Retreat)

 

[gordonknox]

Thanks for all the input...

gk

 

[Olive]

Whee!

The original question was Gate(apple). All corrections are attempting to prove me wrong on the assumption that I was talking about Summoning(orange).

"Zentermi is wrong because oranges don't act that way"

Sorry, I wasn't talking about oranges, I was talking about apples.

KaeYoss said:

"Not if we still speak about the innate abilities to summon other fiends."

I was never referring to that.

Original question:

Is there any info out there on how the process works on how a Devil can bring in (gate) another Devil?

If the Devil is invisible, does it become visible after bringing in another Devil?

Is the Summon descriptor anywhere in there?

If the original response had been something along the lines of, "Ya know, Demons and Devils really don't Gate very much anymore, they have a new specialized ability Summon Tanaari/Baatezu. Maybe you should check it out." My response would have likely been, "really? cool. I will." Implying I don't know how gate works... well, we see the result.

See the problem comes from your first post where you said:

Q - If the Devil is invisible, does it become visible after bringing in another Devil?
A - Conditional. The summoning may not be an attack. The summoner may chose to dispel their invisibility(if their Gated allies do not See Invisible) to enforce their will.

So the confusion is because you used summoning and summoner when you should have used calling and caller. everyone else is right that summoning spells aren't an attack. So your 'may not be considered' is clearly wrong. As far as the other point goes, I'm not really sure, but I just thought that it needed to be pointed out that the reasons people are telling you about summoning is because that's the word you used...

edit: for emphasis

 

[gordonknox]

Combat coming up

I should have a combat coming up with will put the party against three Cornugon devils.

The tactics include an attempt to gate in 1d6 barbazuz.

After reading the MM, it looks like it should be summon, not gate.

I am thinking about having one of the devils "chat with the party" while the other two turn invisible and attempt to summon the barbazuz. If possible, the remaining devil will try the same thing asap.

gk