Devils and Gate

[gordonknox]

Is there any info out there on how the process works on how a Devil can bring in (gate) another Devil?

How long does it take?

If the Devil is invisible, does it become visible after bringing in another Devil?

Do the new Devils always serve?

gk

 

[Zentermi]

My take:

Q - How long does it take?
A - Fast as a spell that does the same thing.

Q - If the Devil is invisible, does it become visible after bringing in another Devil?
A - Conditional. The summoning may not be an attack. The summoner may chose to dispel their invisibility(if their Gated allies do not See Invisible) to enforce their will.

Q - Do the new Devils always serve?
A - For the most part, yes. Devils(Lawful) especially.
1. They may be compelled my the magic of the summoning.
2. They may(in the case of a lower Devil requesting the presence of one higher in the pecking order) demand a boon(many Gate capable critters will not do so, for fear that paying for the aid may be cost prohibitive).
3. The Gate(request for aid) can be refused, based upon the likelyhood that the battle will be won with additional aid. If a Devil is slain(dismissed/destroyed) on a plane other than it's own, it may not return to that plane for a set amount of time(in some cases hundreds of years).

There are a number of strictures a smart DM should place upon gating Infernal/Diabolic allies in. If there aren't, many folks will be happy to point out that the world would be quickly overrun by Outsiders,if they all just showed up and immediately Gate in more.

Other reasons Gate might not be performed:
1. Creature may be involved in a power struggle in their home plane. Compelling underlings to abandon home plane defenses is not an option.
2. Creature may have no allies(renegeging on previous promise) or nothing to offer the other Devils.

For the most part if a Devil does actually come thru the Gate, it WILL perform to further the casters immediate concerns(unless as above, it a lower Devil summoning a Higher) . It may not always obey orders.

 

[JChung2003]

Q - If the Devil is invisible, does it become visible after bringing in another Devil?
A - Conditional. The summoning may not be an attack. The summoner may chose to dispel their invisibility(if their Gated allies do not See Invisible) to enforce their will.

PHB, pg. 218: "Causing harm indirectly is not an attack. Thus, an invisible being can... summon monsters and have them attack." The summoner can command the summoned creature to attack without becoming visible.

 

[Zentermi]

Umn, not sure what in my response said that under all conditions a summoning is an attack.

Since many Planar denizens are powerful creatures in their own right, the Summoner(Devil) may feel it is necessary to become visible to cow their 'servants' into attacking their enemies.

So, Conditional. The summoning process itself does not dispel Invisibility, but the whole process might. Thanks fer the clarification and letting me know yer more literal minded than I am.

"I'm thirsty.." says Ted.
"Get a glass of water..." says Joe.
"You know... if he get's a glass of water... he has to drink it to alleviate thirst..." Steve says.
"Umn, thanks Steve..." Say Ted and Joe.

 

[dcollins]

Q - If the Devil is invisible, does it become visible after bringing in another Devil?
A - Conditional. The summoning may not be an attack. The summoner may chose to dispel their invisibility(if their Gated allies do not See Invisible) to enforce their will.

What JChung is saying is that it's not conditional; summoning is never an attack. There is no requirement to be visible to "enforce their will".

 

[Zentermi]

Devils, Demons etc are self serving. Some perhaps all, will be unwilling to serve as an attack vanguard vs. a powerful party. Unless compelled to do so(thru reward or threat of force) they may not act in the manner desired by the summoner. Threat of force is always more succinct when accompained by the sight of a Slavering Devil replete with massive Greatsword.

Additionally, some Gate summonings will require a creature sacrifice, no? I don't know where your from, but in my town, ripping the head off a chicken(or whatever), is an attack against the chicken(which would dispel Invis). How about yours(not that you have Invisibility in yer town)?

I am well aware of what JC was saying. It was a very 'Rules Lawyer' thing to do. Casting a Gate spell doesn't break Invis, but the question was:"If the Devil is invisible, does it become visible after bringing in another Devil?" and sometimes(after casting the spell, actually getting another Devil to get thru the Gate), yes they do. If the question had been: "If a Devil casts Summon Monster 8 to get a Cornugon, does it become visible?" Then my answer, most assuredly, would have been "No(Unconditionally?)".

I know I'm not always right, but on the point of 'Conditional', yer going to have a hard time proving me wrong.

The question was Gate, not Summon. So actually, JC's and your postswere actually Off-Topic and didn't require explanation.

Sheesh.

Erm, anyway, gordonknox hope that helped.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Additionally, some Gate summonings will require a creature sacrifice, no? I don't know where your from, but in my town, ripping the head off a chicken(or whatever), is an attack against the chicken(which would dispel Invis). How about yours(not that you have Invisibility in yer town)?

So you use Summon Monster I, and get the Fiendish Badger to rip the head off the chicken for you

-Hyp.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Additionally, some Gate summonings will require a creature sacrifice, no?

No.

Note that Summon Baatezu or Summon Tanar'ri work like a summon monster spell. And summon monster states that the monster acts immediately, and attacks your enemies to the best of its ability. The summoner can also give other orders, but it doesn't need to be visible for that.

So the answer to you question "will a devil become invisible when he summons another devil" is "not under any circumstances". Unless he's stupid and gives up that advantage (against an enemy he knows he can't beat alone and so summons another fiend, which he now ows a favor)


With gate it's the very same: gate doesnt need any sacrifice (it has no material component) and anyway you can control a single creature with up to twice as many HD as yourself (or several creatures whose cummulated HD don't exceed your own), so you need not make yourself visible to cow them into service (and if the creatures are beyond these limits, your pityful appearance won't impress that outsider).

 

[Zentermi]

Why Gate, when Summoning will do? Perhaps they don't have access to the appropriate Summon spell. If they dont have access, "monster acts immediately, and attacks your enemies to the best of its ability" is entirely what they would do.

If they do have access to appropriate Summoning magics, there is no reason to utilize Gate, unless the Devil wants more than a few rounds worth of assistance.

Well just for the record, here you go:

PHB 208 - "If you choose to exact a longer or more involved form of service from the called creature, you must offer some fair trade in return for that service. The service exacted must be reasonable with respect to the promsed favor or reward. In general, a gift of 100 gp per HD of of the called creature is reasonable. (Unfortunately, some creature want their payment in "livestock" rather than coin , which may involve complications.)"

Not only do I believe I am technically correct, but from a creating believeable/interesting encounters as well.

Fer the most part, Gating in other creatures won't break Invis.

Sometimes(perhaps rarely) it will.

Occasionally, it may be necessary to 'drop' invis to effectively lead those Gated in.

The only thing I'm saying, I suppose, is that I am not incorrect when I claimed conditional. Frankly I'm suprised that so many people seemed determined to prove me wrong on this point.

Normally, I wouldn't bother to go to these lengths to explain my stance, but JC's surgical strike rules snipe kinda 'Got my Irish up'.
"Daddy, look I drew you a Horsey!"
"One of the eyes is crossed. Here, look at a real picture."

This whole thing may be moot, since according to MM 1, it doesn't seem that Devils have the Gate ability anymore(unless they have sufficient actual wizard levels). They have a simple Summon Baatezu(sp) ability, which works "...much as though casting a Summon Monster spell,..."

No hard feelings to anyone tho, it's turning out interesting.

I must be really bored.

 

[Zentermi]

Heh, funny Hyp.