Maybe you can do what DrunkonDuty mentioned, let people finesse-able weapons without the feat. In realty weapons like the rapier and club do not really fare well against full plate, with the exception of a crit. The rapier was actually developed as a sort of non-wartime weapon to fight against unarmored or lightly armored foes.
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Dex to Hit
- Thread starter Dread October
- Start date
Prophet2b
First Post
dyx said:
Well... If we're talking the realistic here...
Swords were never really used to "shear through armor" or bash aside shields or things of that nature. I live with the current AC rules because changing them tends to change too much in the game (and most of my players don't like that) - but D&D has quite possibly the least realistic combat system out of any role playing system I've seen.
1) Dexterity is way more important when fighting with those things. Not strength. If you want to get through most armor, you use something like the warhammer (which has the little pick attached to it) or a spear or something along those lines. Because puncturing armor is almost always more effective than trying to slash through it.
2) The most effective way to kill a guy in a lot of armor was to knock him over and stab him. Never slash through him. Swords or axes are not really capable of pushing away shields - no matter how much strength you apply to them. That's the beauty of the shield (and physics).
3) The medieval martial arts most of the time were about accuracy. The Germans, for example, developed an entire fighting style centered around getting at the chinks and holes in a person's armor. They knew that going through the armor was entirely ineffective - going around it however...
4) If what is actually taking place in D&D is the shearing through armor, well, then there ought to be some kind of check to break the hardness of the armor - which would, in effect, destroy the armor. That can't be what's taking place, though, if you want combat to make any amount of sense at all.
5) It doesn't take much to swing a sword very fast. Proper swords are both light and balanced for that very reason. Besides which, guys didn't just hack away at each other - they fought dextrously. They looked for openings, struck at the most vital areas, or the places where the armor was weakest, etc.
Now, TheLe is right - having a good dex doesn't necessarily mean you're accurate. But... I do believe dex would more accurately portray true fighting styles. Of course, strength might, as well, depending on the weapon being used.
I particularly like the Serenity role playing game for this reason. No individual skill is 100% tied down to an attribute. It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish. Most of the time, obviously, one skill and attribute will tend to go together. But not always.
In any case, I haven't houseruled dex over str, just because I think it would screw over too many fighter classes that have the inherent assumption that strength is the "to hit attribute". That being said, I also don't play D&D for realistic combat scenarios. Because... well... I'd just be all the more disappointed, if I did.
Tequila Sunrise
Adventurer
While Dex does make more sense as the 'to-hit' stat, it doesn't work well in D&D. Basically the entire system is engineered to make Str offensive and Dex defensive, and changing it really screws with balance everywhere. Maybe your players are non-power gamers and their tank characters will still have high Str despite its lack of worth under your house rule, but in most games it just wouldn't fly.
I use Dex to hit in my homebrew game system, but it only works because I've designed everything from the ground up.
I use Dex to hit in my homebrew game system, but it only works because I've designed everything from the ground up.
Griffith Dragonlake
First Post
One of my house rules for 2nd edition was to use Dex for attacks and Str for damage. However, I dropped that rule after performing a few experiments with plastic weapons and museum replica weapons as well as discussing the physics with my wife (who is a physicist).
Now I know this sounds obvious, but what jumped out at me was how much easier and faster I could hit specific locations with the toy weapons than I could with the museum replicas (and rattan weapons too). This tells me that STR has a direct impact on the ability to move a weapon fast and accurate. The faster a weapon moves, the harder it is to block or parry that weapon. The increased accuracy leads to increase in damage (direct hit v. glancing blow) as well as increase in critical hits (hitting the critical areas).
I made another realization: At some point, STR no longer matters. Going back to the toy example, I realized that DEX drives the success of light weapons, i.e. swinging a plastic sword faster didn't really make any more difference.
Hence the new house rule # 1: All light weapons always use DEX to attack. No more weapon finesse feat (and light weapons use 1/2 X STR bonus).
On a related note, experimenting with museum replicas and SCA (rattan) weapons also led to another discovery. Weapons which are bottom heavy (basket hilt swords) require far less STR to be successful than top heavy weapons (mace, axe, pick, club). Proof: Compare a basket hilt sword to a cross hilt sword. Even if the cross-hilt sword is lighter, having the weight at the bottom acts as an awesome counterbalnce. Now turn that basket hilt sword upside down and try and swing it. Hoo boy! It swings a lot more slowly and really requires both hands to successfully use it. Even though they weigh the same, a bottom heavy weapon and a top heavy weapon have vastly different strength requirements.
House Rule # 2: Mass Arms (mace, club, pick, flail) gain 1.5x STR bonus to hit rather than 1x. [Polearms use 2x STR bonus]
House Rule # 3A: Swords use STR and DEX bonuses to attack.
OR
House Rule # 3B: Swords use 1/2 STR and 1/2 DEX bonuses to attack.
Haven't playtested House Rules 3A and 3B enough to decide which works better.
Now I know this sounds obvious, but what jumped out at me was how much easier and faster I could hit specific locations with the toy weapons than I could with the museum replicas (and rattan weapons too). This tells me that STR has a direct impact on the ability to move a weapon fast and accurate. The faster a weapon moves, the harder it is to block or parry that weapon. The increased accuracy leads to increase in damage (direct hit v. glancing blow) as well as increase in critical hits (hitting the critical areas).
I made another realization: At some point, STR no longer matters. Going back to the toy example, I realized that DEX drives the success of light weapons, i.e. swinging a plastic sword faster didn't really make any more difference.
Hence the new house rule # 1: All light weapons always use DEX to attack. No more weapon finesse feat (and light weapons use 1/2 X STR bonus).
On a related note, experimenting with museum replicas and SCA (rattan) weapons also led to another discovery. Weapons which are bottom heavy (basket hilt swords) require far less STR to be successful than top heavy weapons (mace, axe, pick, club). Proof: Compare a basket hilt sword to a cross hilt sword. Even if the cross-hilt sword is lighter, having the weight at the bottom acts as an awesome counterbalnce. Now turn that basket hilt sword upside down and try and swing it. Hoo boy! It swings a lot more slowly and really requires both hands to successfully use it. Even though they weigh the same, a bottom heavy weapon and a top heavy weapon have vastly different strength requirements.
House Rule # 2: Mass Arms (mace, club, pick, flail) gain 1.5x STR bonus to hit rather than 1x. [Polearms use 2x STR bonus]
House Rule # 3A: Swords use STR and DEX bonuses to attack.
OR
House Rule # 3B: Swords use 1/2 STR and 1/2 DEX bonuses to attack.
Haven't playtested House Rules 3A and 3B enough to decide which works better.
Last edited:
eamon
Explorer
Swinging an actual thick heavy bar (say, a sword) takes strength, first and foremost, not dexterity. And the stronger you are, the faster you can swing it and get it to vulnerable spots before the opponent evades you. Agility might not be irrelevant, but once you have the strength to wield a weapon dangerously, techniques to hit the joints in armor are just that - techniques, which require training, practice and more practice - i.e. base attack bonus.
Seriously though - strength is crucial if you're trying to swing anything remotely heavy.
Seriously though - strength is crucial if you're trying to swing anything remotely heavy.
Tetsubo
First Post
eamon said:
If you are swinging "an actual thick heavy bar" you aren't using a sword. A properly designed sword is as light as it can possibly be and still possess the requisite strength to do its job. A properly designed greatsword should never weigh more than around six pounds...
I have also used the Dex to hit rule in an old 2E campaign. I can see the reasoning but it really does turn Dex into *the* stat in the game...
Well the problem with Dex becoming too powerful can be solved with a house rule I've been thinking of that is more reminiscent of some other systems I've played with:
Initiative is modified by Wisdom rather than Dexterity.
Rationale? Who goes first in combat should be based on reaction time rather than muscle speed.
If anyone thinks that this then makes Wisdom too powerful, fix that by making Force of Personality (Will based on Charisma) standard. I don't think anyone will say that that makes Charisma too powerful.
So how about this then:
Dexterity modifies attack for ranged weapons, light weapons, rapier, and whip, in addition to modifying AC and Reflex Saves.
The lowest of Dexterity and Strength modifies attack for all other swords as well as spiked chains.
Strength modifies attack for all other weapons, in addition to melee, thrown, and composite bow damage.
Wisdom modifies Initiative.
Charisma modifies Will Saves.
As usual:
Intelligence modifies Skill Points
Constitution modifies HP and Fortitude Saves.
Doing this makes all abilities good for something besides particular skills and class features.
Initiative is modified by Wisdom rather than Dexterity.
Rationale? Who goes first in combat should be based on reaction time rather than muscle speed.
If anyone thinks that this then makes Wisdom too powerful, fix that by making Force of Personality (Will based on Charisma) standard. I don't think anyone will say that that makes Charisma too powerful.
So how about this then:
Dexterity modifies attack for ranged weapons, light weapons, rapier, and whip, in addition to modifying AC and Reflex Saves.
The lowest of Dexterity and Strength modifies attack for all other swords as well as spiked chains.
Strength modifies attack for all other weapons, in addition to melee, thrown, and composite bow damage.
Wisdom modifies Initiative.
Charisma modifies Will Saves.
As usual:
Intelligence modifies Skill Points
Constitution modifies HP and Fortitude Saves.
Doing this makes all abilities good for something besides particular skills and class features.
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Suddenly, swords suck. Why?eschwenke said:
Lots and LOTS of monsters are now unbalanced. Charisma already modifies many Supernatural and spell-like ability DCs, so lots of monsters have much higher Charisma than wisdom. Animals are kinda screwed.eschwenke said:
Clerics and Druids will be going first; Rogues (who often use Wisdom as a dump stat) will be going last? Yuck.
Seems like a lot of trouble just for free Weapon Finesse.
Cheers, -- N
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