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Diagonal wonkiness scenarios

Mistwell said:
I agree. It used to be considered a virtue to believe it is incumbent upon each person to hear the other fellow out.
At the risk of repeating myself, I don't see how this applies here at all because I'm happy for people who like the other rule and I'm not coming here to tell them that their way is wrong. Let's consider the following scenario:

PERSON1: I like Milk Chocolate.
PERSON2: Have you tried the new Dark Chocolate? I like that much better.
PERSON1: I've tried it, but I like Milk Chocolate better. I'm glad they're making the Dark Chocolate though, so that way you get the chocolate you like better also.
PERSON2: What!? You're thinking about it the wrong way. If you think about Dark Chocolate, you'll know that it's better.
PERSON1: Actually no. I still like Milk Chocolate better. Sorry dude. But I still think it's cool that you like Dark Chocolate better. Seriously. But it's a matter of taste. You can't change my opinion on something like this just by talking at me. And I know I can't change yours. Let's agree to disagree. Both kinds are good for different people.
SOMEONEELSE: Wow Person 1. This is the most succinct explanation for what's wrong with society that I've ever seen. It used to be considered a virtue to believe it is incumbent upon each person to hear the other fellow out.
 

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hong said:
See, people, I know how to argue with MIT graduates. :D
Hey, if Head-in-the-Sand was good enough for Alan Turing (see pg 21) to feel the need to refute it, it can be good enough for us D&D players to use :D I mean, we aren't being pumped with estrogen like Turing, but we are just as likely as Turing to try to contact the ghost of his gay lover with ESP.

As an aside to others, hong's right. Heck, he may be a Statistician, but he has the heart of a real person. It's in a jar by his bed ;)
 

ainatan said:
He wasn't gaming anything, he just tried to stay as far away from the entrance of the corridor as he could.
Intuitively, the place he choosed to stay was farther than staying in the wall directly opposed to the entrance.
First: "chose"

Second: If he was moving as far away from the monster as he could, fine. If the PC was moving there because he knew the exact distances and was using his metagame knowledge to determine a tactical position, then not so good.


Third: Now, why did the monster attack him? Were you punishing the PC for some reason? Why did you, as a DM, choose to have the monster attack him? Was the PC the furthest PC away from the monster or did you decide that, based on the rules, he was the closest? Was the monster specifically chasing the PC? The answer to these questions determines whether, in this case, the DM was gaming the system.

Fourth: What savants are PCs that they can exactly judge distances? Why can't they accept that all measurements are roughly what they see and not exact? In tabletop wargames, exact distances matter, but in many of them one isn't allowed to measure distances until actions are adjudicated. Those who complain that they want similar accuracy in RPGs should perhaps look to an alternate system that more closely resembles tabletop wargaming.
 

Rystil Arden said:
Well, you have to pick between a universe where a square's diagonal is equal to the length of a side, or one where you can physically move faster when on the diagonal. Both are sufficient choices to make it work. Neither are one that I want.
You shouldn't confuse distance and speed. In a combat situation, there will be many influences on speed. Actual land speed is abstracted away in D&D; surely you don't think that every human walks and runs at exactly the same speed.

It's just going to happen that in certain circumstances, some people will move faster through an area than they otherwise might have. In 4E, this will occasionally coincide with a piece meant to abstractly represent a character traveling on a diagonal on a grid meant to abstractly represent a location. Additionally, both character and location exist only as inexact abstractions in the minds of participants.
 


Rystil Arden said:
Well, you have to pick between a universe where a square's diagonal is equal to the length of a side, or one where you can physically move faster when on the diagonal. Both are sufficient choices to make it work. Neither are one that I want.
That's only if you consider the battlemat as an accurate representation of the imaginary universe. It's not. It isn't really meant to be. It's a placeholder, a form of notation to keep track of the rules aspects of combat. It doesn't need to correspond 1:1 with the narrative in order to be useful. The fact is, squares in 4e are actually circles, each square on the battlemat represents one 5ft circle. The "leftover" space between those circles doesn't exist in the game universe, it's an artifact of transferring an imaginary world onto an imperfect, real-world game-aid, nothing more.

Rystil Arden said:
Actually, 'Stop Thinking' is basically the best argument for the 1-1-1-1-1 rule to me--effectively, you just ignore the implications.
No, you stop jumping through philosophical hoops to insist there are implications. The battlemat is a representation of the rules, it doesn't map the gameworld or the real world, in any meaningful way. You're creating your own problem here.

Rystil Arden said:
I'm a bit befuddled that people can't just be fine with the fact that not using it improves my game and that their arguments won't change whether or not it does.
If it were merely an aesthetics issue, why did you bring up the race scenario as an example of how 1-1-1 diagonal movement doesn't work? It seemed to me, from that example, you weren't really understanding the underlying assumptions that make the race scenario perfectly workable with the new system.
 
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I understand the circle abstraction that you are using. It happens to occasionally make the 4e stuff seem to work out if you use it.

You have to use the circle abstraction to get it to work for the race scenario, but the fact that it works there doesn't mean that it actually corrects for all 4e geometry problems (edit: I call them problems, but they aren't problems for everyone, and indeed, the HEad-in-the-Sand argument of just ignoring them will work fine for many people. Perhaps you would prefer to call them 'idiosyncrasies'. What I'm really saying is that just calling the squares a radial circle sweeping out from the origin is insufficient as a topological correction)--I believe that the only way to completely correct for it is to consider the world to be on a hyperbolic surface rather than a flat surface (though I haven't tested whether that will fix everything yet). For example, the circle abstraction fails to fix the following race, no matter what you do:

The PCs go straight forward some distance r (r being the radius of our circle we're sweeping out from the origin) to a goal. Let's say the NPCs have a faster move speed, so they get a handicap--they have to run a distance r/2 in a 45 degree angle away from the goal, then turn directly towards the goal and run the remainder of the distance. The NPC will always win, even though the PC is running in a straight line and the NPC isn't. No abstraction will fix the fact that there are a variety of equidistant paths from Point A to Point B.

But since arguing topology isn't really fun for most people, let's assume that the circle somehow did work. At that point, we're left with:

That's only if you consider the battlemat as an accurate representation of the imaginary universe. It's not. It isn't really meant to be. It's a placeholder, a form of notation to keep track of the rules aspects of combat. It doesn't need to correspond 1:1 with the narrative in order to be useful. The fact is, squares in 4e are actually circles, each square on the battlemat represents one 5ft circle. The "leftover" space between those circles doesn't exist in the game universe, it's an artifact of transferring an imaginary world onto an imperfect, real-world game-aid, nothing more.
and
If it were merely an aesthetics issue, why did you bring up the race scenario as an example of how 1-1-1 diagonal movement doesn't work? It seemed to me, from that example, you weren't really understanding the underlying assumptions that make the race scenario perfectly workable with the new system.

The key misconception you have (again, assuming that the circle heuristic always worked) is again a failure to be generous in understanding how other people think differently from you. For you, the circle idea is so ingrained as being okay that you couldn't possibly see how that could be an aesthetics issue in and of itself, perhaps even the aesthetics issue. Instead, you were forced to leap to the conclusion that I didn't understand the circle heuristic, etc. It's not that I don't know--it's that in full knowledge of everything you know (but with different tastes, my opinion is still not yours.

No, you stop jumping through philosophical hoops to insist there are implications. The battlemat is a representation of the rules, it doesn't map the gameworld or the real world, in any meaningful way. You're creating your own problem here.

But people think differently, all depending on perspective and frame of reference. You see me jumping through hoops, whereas in my frame of reference, I'm standing still and you're jumping through hoops. I totally believe you that you see yourself as standing still because I know that these things work. And anyway, we're both jumping through hoops in some third frame of reference.
 

Rystil Arden said:
The key misconception you have (again, assuming that the circle heuristic always worked) is again a failure to be generous in understanding how other people think differently from you. For you, the circle idea is so ingrained as being okay that you couldn't possibly see how that could be an aesthetics issue in and of itself, perhaps even the aesthetics issue. Instead, you were forced to leap to the conclusion that I didn't understand the circle heuristic, etc. It's not that I don't know--it's that in full knowledge of everything you know (but with different tastes, my opinion is still not yours.
I assure you I'm not misconceiving your ability to not like something for purely aesthetic reasons. What I'm saying is that the statement "This scenario is impossible to model accurately with the new rules" is different than "The way the new rules model this scenario is aesthetically unpleasing to me". It seemed to me that you were saying the former in your earlier posts, not the latter. If that's not the case, then there's no need to pursue the issue further.
 

Rystil Arden said:
I understand the circle abstraction that you are using. It happens to occasionally make the 4e stuff seem to work out if you use it.
You have definitely misunderstood Ourph's point.

What he said:
Ourph said:
The fact is, squares in 4e are actually circles, each square on the battlemat represents one 5ft circle. The "leftover" space between those circles doesn't exist in the game universe, it's an artifact of transferring an imaginary world onto an imperfect, real-world game-aid, nothing more.
What you said:
Rystil Arden said:
You have to use the circle abstraction to get it to work for the race scenario, but the fact that it works there doesn't mean that it actually corrects for all 4e geometry problems (edit: I call them problems, but they aren't problems for everyone, and indeed, the HEad-in-the-Sand argument of just ignoring them will work fine for many people. Perhaps you would prefer to call them 'idiosyncrasies'. What I'm really saying is that just calling the squares a radial circle sweeping out from the origin is insufficient as a topological correction)--I believe that the only way to completely correct for it is to consider the world to be on a hyperbolic surface rather than a flat surface (though I haven't tested whether that will fix everything yet). For example, the circle abstraction fails to fix the following race, no matter what you do:

The PCs go straight forward some distance r (r being the radius of our circle we're sweeping out from the origin) to a goal. Let's say the NPCs have a faster move speed, so they get a handicap--they have to run a distance r/2 in a 45 degree angle away from the goal, then turn directly towards the goal and run the remainder of the distance. The NPC will always win, even though the PC is running in a straight line and the NPC isn't. No abstraction will fix the fact that there are a variety of equidistant paths from Point A to Point B.

Ourph's analogy occurred to me this morning (and I'm sure I'm not the first person on these boards to whom this has occurred); don't look at the battlemat as a series of adjacent squares: look at it as a series of points with each point having a connection to each of the 9 points surrounding it. Each of the connections is of equal length. The problem with envisioning the points as squares, like on a battlemat, is that visually, the connection between diagonal squares appears to be longer (root 2 of the length of a side vs. the length of a side). That difference in distance between squares on a diagonal and squares along a cardinal axis is illusory.

Does anyone see a hole in this logic?
 

Ourph said:
I assure you I'm not misconceiving your ability to not like something for purely aesthetic reasons. What I'm saying is that the statement "This scenario is impossible to model accurately with the new rules" is different than "The way the new rules model this scenario is aesthetically unpleasing to me". It seemed to me that you were saying the former in your earlier posts, not the latter. If that's not the case, then there's no need to pursue the issue further.
Yes. That's what it is. I agree that there's no need to pursue the issue further. It's what I've been saying for a while ;) The name of this thread is "Diagonal wonkiness scenarios" rather than "Diagonals Break 4e". I don't think anyone would claim it's broken, just wonky. But one man's wonky is another man's no problem. For me, if the wonky cost exists, it is worth it to use 1-2-1-2-1 because (again for me), there is no cost to using 1-2-1-2-1.

@Ulorian--you have misunderstood me. Let me say it again: I already know what you're saying. What you're saying is correct. I am assuming that in my new scenario. I am not ignoring it. I do not have an incomplete understanding of it. Saying that I don't again won't change that. However, while that representation works fine for first order distances, it breaks after that (Look at my new example again. Even if you use the circular heuristic where all eight adjacent squares are equidistant, you will eventually be forced to break geometry when you draw more than one line segment at an angle. I believe you need the world to be set on a hyperbolic surface to fix for this)
 

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