D&D General Dice Fudging and Twist Endings

[Imaculata]

I've had similar streaks happen at my tables. More likely, you weren't actually and rolling the die, but spin-rolling it. This is a common sleight of hand in informal, high-stakes gambling. There's a very small chance you rolled each of those 20s by sheer luck. However, it's very possible you inadvertently used a classic dice-player's technique for fixing outcomes, repeatedly spin-rolling the dice to recreate an outcome after one or two "true" 20's. Still fun when it happens, though

Oh no, I roll with a dice cup. I make it a habit to shake it vigorously before each roll, so everyone at the table can see my rolls are legit.

During the same session, one of our other players kept rolling several 1's, and never higher than a 3. Bad luck streaks and good luck streaks do happen. Just not often.

 

[Arilyn]

Oh no, I roll with a dice cup. I make it a habit to shake it vigorously before each roll, so everyone at the table can see my rolls are legit.

During the same session, one of our other players kept rolling several 1's, and never higher than a 3. Bad luck streaks and good luck streaks do happen. Just not often.

Few months ago in a 5e game I was playing in (4 player group) nobody rolled over a 3 in like 5 rounds of combat. It got kinda surreal after a while.

 

[abirdcall]

I think this is the biggest issue I have with fudging. I feel cheated as a player; if I'm guaranteed to succeed then success is meaningless.

In my game yesterday, one of the players wanted to do something incredibly risky by "improving" the McGuffin that we needed to achieve the current goal by tinkering with it. If it had failed (and success would not have been particularly helpful), it would have meant the campaign would effectively be over. When my PC went to stop him their response was "Even if I fail I'm sure the DM will figure out a way to keep the game going." I was a bit confused by this especially when the other player kept insisting, despite the DM's confirmation that they could indeed break the McGuffin and the campaign would be over. I never assume the DM will guarantee that we win the day.

I view DM fudging dice rolls much the same way. If I didn't want a chance of failure, I wouldn't play D&D. Playing with a deck stacked so much in my favor that I cannot lose is simply not fun.

P.S. If I ask how many HP you have left, it's because I'm trying to figure out if the bad guys are going to focus fire on your PC to take one of you out.

100%

In this scenario I would tell the player they need unanimous approval to do the tinkering as it could be so disastrous.

(we have a rule at the table of no inter-party conflict. This includes PCs doing things that force the hand of the party without approval)

 

[abirdcall]

I still remember a game I ran years ago where, due to a number of lucky rolls on the part of the enemy, there was 1 PC left standing with single digit HP fighting the last enemy. The group was on the verge of a TPK. The surviving PC dove under a table to get cover (they were a caster with minimal AC), one of the fellow PCs rolled a 20 on their death save and came back to consciousness in the nick of time.

The players at the table cheered when the last enemy went down. I can't imagine that happening if I had been fudging dice. It's those encounters that are most memorable to me and it's something you don't generally get when the DM is obviously holding back.

The cheapest thing is when the DM pretends that it will be a TPK but knows they will make something up to save the day. Then when everyone cheers they think to themselves what a great job they did and with no risk of failure.

This works until the players figure out the lie and then it removes the satisfaction from the previous victories.

When everything can go wrong then players will even be excited about saving resources because they know how tight things will be. Otherwise they just use all their big abilities all the time.

There are ripples to do too. In my current game which mostly takes place in open land there is a roaming benevolent NPC that will swoop in and save them once during the campaign if things go wrong in an area they travel.

The players don't know this. For me the important thing is that I have determined this ahead of time, it will lead to interesting story, and it is 1 time only.

 

[Cadence]

Then surely I've now spent all of my luck, and I will never ever win a lottery.

But it most definitely happened. It was surreal. The rest of the party was on the ropes, and my barbarian kept going and going, crit after crit.

Such a luck streak could make short work of any well prepared boss battle. Unfortunately it got wasted on a bunch of fire mages.

Getting a string of 5 or 6 twenties in a row is certainly amazing if a person called it in advance and then rolled them. If twenty people active in this thread each rolled a few thousand 20-siders in their lives, saw friends roll a bunch, and would also have noticed if it was a sequence of 1s, the probabilities get much less outlandish.

The intro Stat book we use has lots of examples of how people think things are rare super because they don't account for many chances they had for a rare thing. (Like p-hacking or the myth of the chance encounter.)

 

[Cadence]

The cheapest thing is when the DM pretends that it will be a TPK but knows they will make something up to save the day. Then when everyone cheers they think to themselves what a great job they did and with no risk of failure.

This works until the players figure out the lie and then it removes the satisfaction from the previous victories.

When everything can go wrong then players will even be excited about saving resources because they know how tight things will be. Otherwise they just use all their big abilities all the time.

There are ripples to do too. In my current game which mostly takes place in open land there is a roaming benevolent NPC that will swoop in and save them once during the campaign if things go wrong in an area they travel.

The players don't know this. For me the important thing is that I have determined this ahead of time, it will lead to interesting story, and it is 1 time only.

Why would the players believe you set it in advance, and why is it better?

It feels to me like "This works until the players figure out the lie and then it removes the satisfaction from the previous victories." is still a possibility. "No, no, I wouldn't have made something up on the spot a few times to save you if needed. You were just playing with an emergency rescue the whole time!" ?

 

[abirdcall]

Why would the players believe you set it in advance, and why is it better?

It feels to me like "This works until the players figure out the lie and then it removes the satisfaction from the previous victories." is still a possibility. "No, no, I wouldn't have made something up on the spot a few times to save you if needed. You were just playing with an emergency rescue the whole time!" ?

Because we have played many campaigns together and I've never done this before and it makes sense in the game world. There will be interesting consequences too if it happens. They're also my friends and they know I wouldn't lie to them. I've built up this trust.

There is a world of difference between this and me rolling and then deciding the outcome anyway.

I decide there are creatures in the world and what they're doing which is similar. I do this irrespective of the PC classes. Magic items are the same way. I don't alter treasure rolls to fit what the PCs want.

 

[Cadence]

A lot depends on what you mean by "fair". Is it fair that I was born in a rich country and do not have to worry about food, whereas someone else is facing death through starvation through no fault of their own?

Is it fair to say that both a billionaire and a homeless person must pay $1000 to avoid spending a night in jail?

There's an important distinction between "fair" -- in the technical sense of a fair dice; something that is unbiased and ignores context, and in the moral sense.

When I see a player who loves their character, and has played intelligently and well, dying because they were super unlucky, it may be fair in the technical sense, but unfair in the moral sense. So I consider restoring the moral fairness by undoing the technical fairness.

I have a friend who has laid out up front something like: "You probably won't die unless you did something really stupid or if the stakes were clearly really high." (So, just matching up to the huge goblin village and attacking is probably not good... and fighting a BBEG or other major bad guy is risky).

 

[Cadence]

Because we have played many campaigns together and I've never done this before and it makes sense in the game world. There will be interesting consequences too if it happens. They're also my friends and they know I wouldn't lie to them. I've built up this trust.

There is a world of difference between this and me rolling and then deciding the outcome anyway.

Upthread I suggested a limited meta currency to allow the DM a reroll or similar escape hatch. This feels very similar in spirit to me.

It also tangentially makes me think of Shadowfax and Gandalf. Is it like an augery that knows in advance Gandalf is going to whistle? Does it spend it's spare time just out of sight trailing them? On the surface, an NPC that just happens to be keeping track of the party 24/7 and teleports in doesn't seem that much more in world real than the gods of luck blowing on the die and tipping it over. (Except that it could add to the story the way you do it. I might think about something like that with the metacurrency thought).

 

[tabletopreloaded]

Oh no, I roll with a dice cup. I make it a habit to shake it vigorously before each roll, so everyone at the table can see my rolls are legit.

During the same session, one of our other players kept rolling several 1's, and never higher than a 3. Bad luck streaks and good luck streaks do happen. Just not often.

Well, that's frankly insane. I guess it was bound to happen to somebody. Besides, the overlap between sequences of rolls does make 6 d20s a little more possible. Congrats on your incredible luck Maybe you should grab a lotto ticket!