D&D 5E Dice Rolling for beginning ability scores...redux

[EzekielRaiden]

I'm not calculating the SD of the ability scores, I'm calculating the SD of the ability bonuses. Other than that, yeah the math works out. But I calculated the variance and it was easier to multiply and then take the square root.

The problem with calculating variances in modifiers is the odd vs even distinction which can matter once feats and racial bonuses are applied. Hence I think it best to look at stat totals and then use that to get the plausible range of modifier differences for a given stat total difference.

 

[jgsugden]

I think point buy needs to have those caps on it. Being able to choose anything higher than a 15 just results in people gravitating towards the classes that really only need one attribute.

What I like to do when a new party starts a party together is roll 4d6 (best 3) for each ability and each PC. Then I write each result on an index card - so for 5 PCs there would be 30 index cards. Then I add one more card per PC with a special ability or feature on it. There might be an ally, a magic item, a fairly uncommonly taken feat, etc...

Then, I give each player 100 chips and we have an auction. The players do not know what is on the cards. They have to stop bidding once they have 6 ability scores, but they could get anywhere from 0 to 6 special abilities. The player with the least chips (random tie breaker) has to start the bidding and has a minimum bid of 1 chip. This means that a player that spends a lot to get that 18 may end up being forced to bid 1 on that 5 that comes up soon after - and maybe the 4 that comes right after it.

Shrewd players have really won the auction in the past. I had one player running a character with not attribute below 13 and 4 of the 6 boons for that game ... but everyone was happy in the end.

I generally only do this with an experienced group that has played together with no new faces. It can be a bonding experience, but it can also cause bad blood amongst people that do not know each other.

 

[Cleon]

I find this is not nearly as common as people think, because it is roll and assign.

You only get actually unexpected stuff in one of two situations:
The player has rolled stupidly well and thus gets to "waste" good scores on irrelevant stats, or
The stat rolls were strict (e.g. Strength is the first roll) and thus the player cannot move the second(third/etc.) good roll to a more useful stat.

Because no matter what, even in ye olden dayse where people never rolled anything but 3d6 strict*, people would almost always pick a class that suited their ability scores. Everyone is "cookie cutter" in that sense. You won't find Fighters with garbage Str and Con and Dex, because that just won't be fun to play. You won't find Wizards with garbage Int, because that just won't succeed much. Note, this "you won't find" doesn't mean it's impossible, but it isn't impossible with point buy either...you'll just almost never see it either way, because people have the choice to play something effective vs ineffective, and effective will almost always win.

As long as people have the freedom to choose where to put their stats, almost every character will be cookie-cutter to some degree unless the player gets very lucky. As long as people have the freedom to choose their class, then even if rolls are strict, almost every character will be minimally cookie-cutter because almost every player will choose a class that fits their stats at least a little.

*This was never the default method for D&D, people just think it was.

But I didn't say fighters with garbage physical stats or wizards with poor Intelligence, I mentioned fighters with high Intelligence or wizards with high Strength.

So a character with a good score in what would normally be considered the dump stat for a particular class.

A "quirky" high stat like that is much more likely if a player can roll it randomly rather than having to pay for it out of a pool of points they could spend elsewhere.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

But I didn't say fighters with garbage physical stats or wizards with poor Intelligence, I mentioned fighters with high Intelligence or wizards with high Strength.

So a character with a good score in what would normally be considered the dump stat for a particular class.

A "quirky" high stat like that is much more likely if a player can roll it randomly rather than having to pay for it out of a pool of points they could spend elsewhere.

...but you won't see that unless the player rolls well. Because their good rolls will go to the stats that have the most value.

A typical rolled Fighter won't have high Intelligence unless the rules force them to (strict rolling) or they're quite lucky (e.g. several 14+ stats.) And the reason for that is exactly what I said.

You say it is "much more likely," but you need to already be in rarefied company to have the potential. A Fighter is going to put their first high stat in Strength or Dex, depending on which they rely on most, and the second into Con. For a Str-based Fighter, high Dex is still compelling, but for a Dex-based one, high Str is of minimal value. So, for a Dex-based one, you're gonna need at least three good rolls to see high Int (or Cha or whatever) on a Fighter; for a Str-based one, you'll probably need four such rolls. I'm not sure what you would consider a "high" stat, but even for pretty low standards thereof, people are only gonna hit that about one seventh of the time (e.g. rolling four 14+ stats.)

Conversely, I've known several players, including yours truly, who have no problem sinking 14 or more into "unimportant" stats with point buy because it fits the concept of the character. This is especially true when the point buy is more generous, covers a broader spread of numbers, and the game overall offers ways to mitigate it...which is exactly what I've done in other games.

So yeah. I don't really buy the argument that you suddenly get this huge windfall of unexpectedly diverse and interesting characters. The vast majority will be just as "cookie-cutter" as what you're criticizing, and it really won't be that much more likely that you'll see such "quirky" statted characters.

 

[Clint_L]

We use standard array. It works fine and prevents dumb luck giving someone an advantage or disadvantage that lasts the entire campaign. Point buy would work, too, but is a little trickier to implement with new players. Note that I play with teenagers quite a lot, who react particularly negatively to what they perceive as unfairness.

On a personal level I enjoy rolling for ability scores, but recognize the inherent inequity is problematic.

 

[Cleon]

...but you won't see that unless the player rolls well. Because their good rolls will go to the stats that have the most value.

A typical rolled Fighter won't have high Intelligence unless the rules force them to (strict rolling) or they're quite lucky (e.g. several 14+ stats.) And the reason for that is exactly what I said.

You say it is "much more likely," but you need to already be in rarefied company to have the potential. A Fighter is going to put their first high stat in Strength or Dex, depending on which they rely on most, and the second into Con. For a Str-based Fighter, high Dex is still compelling, but for a Dex-based one, high Str is of minimal value. So, for a Dex-based one, you're gonna need at least three good rolls to see high Int (or Cha or whatever) on a Fighter; for a Str-based one, you'll probably need four such rolls. I'm not sure what you would consider a "high" stat, but even for pretty low standards thereof, people are only gonna hit that about one seventh of the time (e.g. rolling four 14+ stats.)

Conversely, I've known several players, including yours truly, who have no problem sinking 14 or more into "unimportant" stats with point buy because it fits the concept of the character. This is especially true when the point buy is more generous, covers a broader spread of numbers, and the game overall offers ways to mitigate it...which is exactly what I've done in other games.

So yeah. I don't really buy the argument that you suddenly get this huge windfall of unexpectedly diverse and interesting characters. The vast majority will be just as "cookie-cutter" as what you're criticizing, and it really won't be that much more likely that you'll see such "quirky" statted characters.

Early editions of D&D did have roll-in-order for ability scores, either as the default or an option, or the table used some house rule or other such as roll-in-order and swap one ability or whatever.

Will agree that it's a lot easier to build a character to a concept with point buy, but there is something to be said for having a random element in character creation. Although in the campaigns I've seen most of the fun stuff came from various methods of randomly creating character backgrounds & history.

Besides, I'm not as enamored towards random ability creation as to think it creates a "huge windfall of unexpectedly diverse and interesting characters." More like that in my experience some randomness in character generation can occasionally create something interesting that you didn't expect, which is hardly a dazzling concept.

Not sure what the benefit of this argument is.

On the issue of "unimportant" stats (like the Intelligence for a fighter, or Charisma for most AD&D classes) I've observed higher scores for those happening a lot more often with random ability generation than point buy. Obviously you can build a character with a high "unimportant" stat but there's an incentive not to.

Ideally, I'd prefer a game where there was little opportunity cost to have a good stat in an ability that your class didn't rely on or some "flavour skills" that don't usually contribute to a character's ability as an adventure like, say, cooking or carpentry. Assuming the genre is one were going into such detail is important.

 

[ECMO3]

I am not sure what the question is. Rolling dice is the standard way of generating ability scores in 5E.

 

[Clint_L]

I am not sure what the question is. Rolling dice is the standard way of generating ability scores in 5E.

That or standard array are the two options presented at the start of the PHB:

You generate your character’s six ability scores randomly. Roll four 6-sided dice and record the total of the highest three dice on a piece of scratch paper. Do this five more times, so that you have six numbers. If you want to save time or don’t like the idea of randomly determining ability scores, you can use the following scores instead: 15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8.

The subsequent example uses standard array, not dice rolls. But point buy as a variant rule is offered immediately afterwards.

I thought I read somewhere that standard array has become the norm, but perhaps I am misremembering. On DnDBeyond, perhaps?

 

[Casimir Liber]

We use standard array. It works fine and prevents dumb luck giving someone an advantage or disadvantage that lasts the entire campaign. Point buy would work, too, but is a little trickier to implement with new players. Note that I play with teenagers quite a lot, who react particularly negatively to what they perceive as unfairness.

On a personal level I enjoy rolling for ability scores, but recognize the inherent inequity is problematic.

Yeah agree-so looking at ways to balance post-rolling so we get the fun of rolling and balance with post-hoc feats

 

[Casimir Liber]

I am not sure what the question is. Rolling dice is the standard way of generating ability scores in 5E.

Most games I've played in are doing points-buy, and I was musing at balance in rolling is all