Dicing NPC Conflict

Water Bob

Adventurer
I've got a situation coming up in my game where one of the NPCs, close to the main characters, is going to participate in an honor challenge to the death. Because it is an honor challenge, the PCs won't be able to interfere, no matter the outcome of the fight (well, they could interfere, but I'm sure they won't because of their barabarian honor).

I could just narrate the fight for the PCs, but I want to make it more exciting. If I describe the events, the players will know that I've predetermined what will happen to the NPC. I don't want them thinking that way. I want them thinking that anything is possible.

They really like this NPC, so, if he dies, the PCs will be sad about it. The players will be pulling for the NPC to win.

Therefore, I want to dice out the encounter. But because the players will just be watching this, I don't want a regular, drawn out combat encounter. I want to quick-dice the results, using description, based on the die results, to highten the drama.

Have you ever done anything like this before? Do you have some quick-n-dirty combat rules I could use for this encounter?

I'm thinking about using the rules for the Conan Mass Combat System ('cause I'm running a Conan game), using the NPC as a "unit" and his challenger as a "unit", and just dicing quickly the results of the fight.

Other Thoughts?
 

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How about this? Divide up the players and give the NPCs as character sheets to both sides. Let the players do the combat, rolls, tactics, everything. Should be fun, interesting, and a new experience.
 

Not sure how you should roll it but maybe affecting events around the fight might be wise, look out for their boy as it were. Not sure of the honesty of the groups at play here, not the actual two men fighting maybe but perhapse 'friends' of there's may try and make there's a winner - so count poisenings, cheering on the hero, combat advice and control the crowd... just a few ideas.

As for the how let there actions influence the out come with modifiers so he can still prevail without them which might be all the more amusing tbh. Oh and a system... GM screen it and just to a swin chart -10 to +10 add moddifiers due to npcs and have the battle unfold efecting it(do it all behind a GM screen incase you feel you've got to become inventive because it didn't go a very intresting route.
 

I like HoboGod's idea. The only problem is that things never seem to work out the way you might think it will. That's part of the beauty of D&D or RPGs in general.

Do you HAVE a predetermined outcome?

In the past, I simply 'fake'-rolled dice behind the screen with appropriate winces and cheers and pretended to add up numbers. In one case, I essentially had a script of predetermined outcomes and role-played them with the fake rolls.
Script:
Round 1 neither hits
Round 2 GG crits (yeah!) and does 20 pts damage.
Round 3 GG hits again (he's beating the crap out of the guy) 10 pts.
Round 4 BG crits (uh-oh!) and does 22 pts.
and so on.
In my script the good guy started off well then slumped. The bad guy peaked, caught up and passed the good guy. Finally, they were down to a few hps each when (using simultaneous initiative) each NPC got a hit. I then had the PCs roll initiative for the good guy while I rolled for the bad guy, all in the open. I was fully willing to let either the good guy or the bad guy die.

The real problem might be: are you 10000% certain the PCs will NOT interfere? In that case, you need to have hard numbers either predetermined or actually rolled. I had a similar situation where the PC Paladin and Cleric were honor-bound to prevent the PCs from interfering. Yet an illusionist was able to slip one by them and the bad guy lost.
 

How about this? Divide up the players and give the NPCs as character sheets to both sides. Let the players do the combat, rolls, tactics, everything. Should be fun, interesting, and a new experience.

That was my original intent, but, I've devised a more interesting encounter for the PCs that takes place just before this one with the NPC. Originally, in my DM Creation Department, I didn't have a combat encounter planned for the PCs, so letting them play the NPC and his opponent would be ideal.

But, two combat encounter back-to-back like this would lose some of the umph and possibly drag down the game (since combat can be slow).

That's when I came up with the idea of the PCs watching the encounter, with a viable interest in its outcome (since they are attached to the NPC), but helpless to do anything about it because they are honor bound not to.

I want to play up that aspect of it. I think it will make for an interesting encounter--watching the fight, wanting to do something, but can't.

If I just use narration, I'll lose the drama, too, because the players will know that I've pre-selected the outcome.

This brought me around to thinking that I'd get some mileage out of dicing the encounter, where either side can win. If I describe it right and roll dice out in front of the players so that they know I'm not flubbing at all, I should be able to squeeze some high drama out of this encounter, keeping the players on the edge of their seats.

Again, I don't want to use the full rules--just some basic d20 throws and descriptive action.

I'm thinking hard about just giving each combatant a target number--like a DC to hit and damage the opponent--and based on those rolls describe the action. The higher the roll, the more hit points will be taken off.

Let's say a character needs a 12 to hit. If he rolls a 13, it's one hit point of damage. If he rolls a 17, it's 5 hit points of damage. A roll of 20 may be automatic double damage.

I just want one roll to figure everything, keeping the encounter quick and exciting, back and forth, focusing on the players watching the action.

Something simple like that.
 

Do you HAVE a predetermined outcome?

Originally, I was going to narrate it with the NPC winning the fight. My preference is that the NPC win. But, I realized, due to the players' attachment to this particular NPC (he's their brother in the game, and our previous roleplay sessions have made the trio quite tight), I can get some edge-of-the-seat excitement if I dice this thing with no pre-determined outcome.

I explain above why I don't want to play this out in usual combat rounds. I want fury and action, with dice rolling and dramatic descriptive action. I want it to be like watching the end of the movie ROCKY.

Using the dice out in the open, they'll know that nothing is predetermined and that anything can happen. That's the key to the drama in this scene.

I'm prepared to go on with the game in either direction, with the NPC winning or with his death.


The real problem might be: are you 10000% certain the PCs will NOT interfere?

What DM can ever be 10000% about a player doing anything?

But, I am about 85% sure that the players won't do anything. It would really surprise me if they did. They're Cimmerians, and it would be a big hit to thier honor if they interfered in this particular fight.
 

I'm going to look at those Conan Mass Combat rules, but what I'm thinking right now is something simple like this: Treat the encounter like a skill check.

The "skill" is the character. His level represents "ranks". I'll use STR as the key stat. And, I'll throw in a modifier for type of weapon used.

Thus, a 1st level Barbarian with a STR 16 would be: d20 + 1 + 3 + weapon modifier.

The weapon modifier will be based on its relative damage. It will also consider armor, too.

Each round, I'll throw opposed rolls for the round. The differnence in the die rolls represents damage to the combatant with the lowest total.



That's a pretty quick, relatively fair way to do it. I can throw out two d20's at the same time, add my modifiers, and then describe the action as the dice read.

That's one way to do it. Still thinking.
 
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And, that thinking has brought me to this....

Treat the encounter like a skill check.

The "skill" is the character. His level represents "ranks". I'll use STR as the key stat. And, I'll throw in a modifier for type of weapon used.

Thus, a 1st level Barbarian with a STR 16 would be: d20 + 1 + 3 + weapon modifier.

The weapon modifier will be based on its relative damage. It will also consider armor, too.

Each round, I'll throw opposed rolls for the round. The differnence in the die rolls represents damage to the combatant with the lowest total.



I like this little mechanic. I think it might be useful for all types of encounters that the PCs can see but not be directly involved with. It's easily scale-able.

The structure of a skill check is familiar and becomes plug-n-play with the d20 system.

d20 + skill rank (character level) + governor stat (appropriate ability score) + combat modifier (usually a relative modifier of equipment and special abilites like Feats).

Roll the check Opposed, and the difference in check totals reveals which side hurt the other.



Let's say the PC's clan, the Blue Foxmen, has a blood fued with a neighboring clan, the Grath. 27 Blue Foxmen take the field against 42 Grath.

The Foxmen break into three skirmish groups of 9 warriors each. The PCs occupy the center group (with NPCs making a total of 9).

The Grath break into three groups in answer, with 14 warriors each.

From a GM's point of view, here's how I run this encounter: I set up a check, like mentioned above, for each of the three Grath units and each of the three Fox units.

Initiative doesn't matter, so whatever makes for best description will be decided first.

I'd want to do this from the PC's point of view, so, I'd probably start with them as they scream out their war cries and launch themselves at their enemy with their kinsmen by their sides.

I'd play out the PC encounters normally using normal combat rules. For the rest of the NPCs in their group, I'd roll the skill check. The check is flexible, so the difference in the Opposed checks can men the total men that were lost, or I can use some fraction of that number.

In an extremely large battle, I might use the difference to represent how many men are lost. But, since we're only dealing with less than 100 men on both sides, I can divide the difference by 3. For example, the Grath roll 17 and te Foxmen roll 9. The difference is 8 / 3 = 2.6. Two Foxmen fall that round.

And because it's not likely that large groups of men fall on only once side of the battle, we can take, as casualties, one third of the men the fell on the enemy's side. So, if the Foxmen lost 2 men, the Grath lost none. Next round goes in the Foxmen's favor, and the Grath lose 5 men--so the Foxmen would lose 1.

It's up to the GM to figure a fair ratio depending on the fight.

Every round, play out the PCs as normal, then, the last thing before going to a new round, roll to see how the NPCs are doing.

Because there is a Fog of War, the PCs cannot see how the skirmishes are going to the left and right of them. So, the GM need only roll these two rolls (one throw for each side) behind his screen to keep up with what is happening on those sides of the battlefield.





Here's how I'm thinking something like this could play out in a game:

1. The GM decides on the structure of the war check. In this case, the "rank" will be the average level of the unit, the "governor stat" will be the number of people in the unit, and the combat modifier will be a number determined by the GM after he as assessed the armor, weapons, and special abilities of the unit.

Thus, the left hand flank of the Foxmen would throw d20 + 3 - 1 + 0.

Where:

"+3" - rank - is the averge leve of the 9 warriors in the unit.

"-1" - governor stat - 9 warriors means a -1 if it were a stat.

"+0" - combat modifier - The GM has determined that the Foxmen have no advantage in armor, weapons, Feats, or Special Abilities over the Grath.

Likewise, the Grath's check would be: d20 + 2 + 2 + 0.

"+2" rank because the Grath average 2nd level in their unit of 14 warriors.

"+2" stat mod because 14 warriros is akin to a stat of 14 with a +2 modifier.

"+0" combat modifier because the GM determines that the Foxmen and Grath are evenly matched with weapons, armor, Feats, and special abilities.



2. The GM determines, based on the size of the units in the conflict, that 1/3 of the difference in the throws will represent how many men from the losers side falls. 1/3 of that number represents how many on the victor's side falls.



3. The encounter starts as a normal game encounter, focused on the PCs and what they see. Roleplaying prevails. The GM describes everything.



4. At some point, the actual encounter will begin. Describe the action from the PC's point of view. Run combat normally, centered on the PCs.

"You scream at the top of your lungs as you charge toward the Grath! Beside you, your kinsmen bellow out their own war cries!

"The Grath line approaches, and men from both sides beging to hack at each other. Caelis finds himself in front of a big, burly Grath who has tattooed a blue and black design on his face. Thrallan sees that two Grath have turned toward them. Both only wear loin clouts, boots, and horned helms. They're a bit shorter than the rest of the Grath, but they seem to be working in tandem.

"Roll Initiative!"



5. At the end of the PC's combat round, roll the war check opposed roll and describe the results.



6. Secretly, roll for the left and right flank skirmish units and jot down the results. The PCs can't see what's going on, but you can use this information to keep a handle on how the battle is going.

7. Back to the PCs for round 2....
 

Just to clarify for my own sake. When I first read your thread I was under the impression the 'honor-challenge' was a one creature vs. one creature thing (despite your mention of the mass combat system). Now, it truly looks like a full on battle. So there is no one guy vs. one guy honorable combat thing?
 

Just to clarify for my own sake. When I first read your thread I was under the impression the 'honor-challenge' was a one creature vs. one creature thing (despite your mention of the mass combat system). Now, it truly looks like a full on battle. So there is no one guy vs. one guy honorable combat thing?

No, it is a one man vs. one man fight. It was just, after I figured a way to quickly dice it, I looked at the system I cooked up and realized that it was flexible and can be used any time NPCs are fighting without direct PC involvement.

With the NPC honor fight I mention in the OP, it is a one-on-one fight. So, I'll use the war check like this:

d20 + rank + Stat mod + situational modifier

Where:

rank = the character's level

Stat mod = character's STR mod

situational modifier = a GM determined modifier based on armor, weapons, Feats, and special abilities

The difference in this Opposed check will indicate the number of hit points lost by the loser of the check.



I realized that I could scale the check for just about any situation. If I wanted a fight between two clans, the check would be:

d20 + rank + Stat modifier + situational modifier

Where:

rank = average level of a "unit"

Stat modifier = using the number of warriors in the "unit" as a stat, then taking the modifier from that (i.e. 20 warriors would mean a +5 modifier just like a STR 20).

situational modifier = GM determined modifier based on weapons, armor, Feats, and special abilities.

The difference in this Opposed check is divided by 3, with the result indicating the number of warriors downed by the losing unit. A number of warriors from the winning check will be downed as well, equal to one third of that the enemy lost.




If I wanted to run a war between two armies, each with over 10,000 men, I would use the same system, slightly modified:

d20 + rank + Stat mod + situational mod

Where:

rank = average level of men in the army

Stat mod = modifier derived from number of men / 1000, so that 10,000 men = 10, with modifier of +0.

situational mod = determined by GM based on army's equipment, gear, siege engines, average armor and weapons, special abilties (like magic), etc.

The difference in the Opposed checks represents the loser losing the result x 100 where the winning side loses half that amount.



My point is, the system is pretty flexible to handle whatever I need it to, from a one-on-one encounter to a large, Helm's Deep kind of encounter--all focused on the PCs.
 

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