Did I overreact?

[Cedric]

Obviously, it's going to provoke that. The player knew that. What he wanted to do was to play off of the reaction. And he felt cheated when he didn't get a chance to do so.

All I'm saying is that maybe the GM had a reason for not playing it out combat style.

There could be lots of reasons...

1. Had a number of things he wanted to get through that night, didn't want to take 30 minutes for a cinematic bar fight just so the uppity halfling can kick all the locals butts, since he probably outclasses all of them....

2. Didn't want the Halfling to pick a fight, because the town is full of country farmers intolerant of demi-humans who would have tried to kill the halfling and the rest of the party, pitting a good but intolerant group of townsfolk against the pc's in a fight that has no winner....

3. The GM reasoned that one halfling isn't going to out perform a room full of rowdy bar patrons in a crowded space, just because what a few die rolls say.

If the GM doesn't assign any penalty or drawback to your character for something that he just scripts...then go with it.

If he scripts out a scenario where your character does get screwed and it's not for plot purposes (like the Shadowrun guy who was kidnapped and tortured for days), then find a new GM.

Just my thoughts,

Cedric

 

[Andor]

Skills

Sure the Halflings skills could have changed the outcome... Had he chosen to exercise them. By, for example, making a skill check to see what he could have ordered to ingratiate himself with the patrons.

Instead he deliberately provoked them, thus sidstepping the whole issue of diplomacy skills. A featherfall spell won't help you mage either, if he fails to cast it on the way down.

The GMs actions seem entirely reasonable to me. It only would have been bad if the character had taken damage. Or if he had readied an action in case he was grabbed. Or delclared a dodge or in someother way indicated he was ready to defend himself. Otherwise he was surprised, and flatfooted and the gm simply didn't bother to roll to see if the NPC could hit ac 11 with a grab. With no damage delt it's a non issue.

-Andor

 

[Pielorinho]

All I'm saying is that maybe the GM had a reason for not playing it out combat style.

There could be lots of reasons...

There could be plenty of good reasons. However, I think this was a heavyhanded way to handle it; obviously, it left the player unhappy.

DMs in this situation have some options:
1) DESCRIBE THE DANGER. Several really big, burly guys can growl at the character; the bartender can lean forward and mutter, "I don't think this is your kind of place. How about you leave and nobody gets hurt?"
2) PUMP UP THE ADVERSARIES. Maybe two of the farmers are veterans of King Avelan's War, and move mighty quick. This could be a great way to impress on the halfling that they are, indeed, in mercenary country.
3) MENTION CONSEQUENCES. This is a little heavyhanded, but not as bad as throwing the PC out without a chance to respond. As the DM, you can remind the player that they're in town for a reason, that even if he wins the fight he'll have made a couple dozen enemies, and that he sees the glint of steel at the belts of a couple of men. Maybe it's not worth causing a ruckus?
4) THROW IN A TWIST. Everyone glares. Tension mounts. The piano player stops in mid-measure. And then the bartender throws back his head and laughs -- and one by one, everyone else joins in. "Get the little squirt some milk, Molly!" he shouts. "See if we have any cookies back there, too!"

Yes, the DM may have good motives for not playing out a combat at this point. However, I don't think this DM dealt with the situation very well.

Daniel

 

[Sigmund]

There could be plenty of good reasons. However, I think this was a heavyhanded way to handle it; obviously, it left the player unhappy.

DMs in this situation have some options:
1) DESCRIBE THE DANGER. Several really big, burly guys can growl at the character; the bartender can lean forward and mutter, "I don't think this is your kind of place. How about you leave and nobody gets hurt?"
2) PUMP UP THE ADVERSARIES. Maybe two of the farmers are veterans of King Avelan's War, and move mighty quick. This could be a great way to impress on the halfling that they are, indeed, in mercenary country.
3) MENTION CONSEQUENCES. This is a little heavyhanded, but not as bad as throwing the PC out without a chance to respond. As the DM, you can remind the player that they're in town for a reason, that even if he wins the fight he'll have made a couple dozen enemies, and that he sees the glint of steel at the belts of a couple of men. Maybe it's not worth causing a ruckus?
4) THROW IN A TWIST. Everyone glares. Tension mounts. The piano player stops in mid-measure. And then the bartender throws back his head and laughs -- and one by one, everyone else joins in. "Get the little squirt some milk, Molly!" he shouts. "See if we have any cookies back there, too!"

Yes, the DM may have good motives for not playing out a combat at this point. However, I don't think this DM dealt with the situation very well.

Daniel

I'm finding myself on the side of the player here as well....nobody said he would have to play out a whole combat by allowing the halfling a roll or two. Oh...I included the quote because I LOVE #4...that would have been far better IMO

Just for another take.....maybe as DM I would have allowed the halfling first a tumble roll against a DC I set, then an Escape Artist roll...then maybe another Tumble roll. All of this would have been without any scene description. Then, gathering all the players back together I would have told them, "You hear a loud ruckus begin eminating from the bar your halfling friend just entered." Then, as they make ready to rush in I would say, "Just as you reach the door to the place, it opens a crack and out crawls your halfling friend, reeking of ale, dripping wet, and with what looks like gravy smeared over half his face." Then the RPing between the players would have ensued.

 

[Tom Cashel]

DMs in this situation have some options:
1) DESCRIBE THE DANGER.
2) PUMP UP THE ADVERSARIES.
3) MENTION CONSEQUENCES.
4) THROW IN A TWIST.

How much time do you folks have for a given game session?

We have about six hours, once a month. If one of my players insisted on turning a bar scene into an opportunity to grandstand, I'd (as DM) have him thrown out, too. There's just not enough time to waste (if I may be so bold) on role-playing every scene the PCs choose to create.

If there was time, fine...why not let the halfling play out the scene?

But if your time, like mine, is extremely limited, then you have to pick and choose. There's nothing wrong with a DM fiat in a case like this. It should never be done in combat, but it's the exact same thing as rolling some dice behind the screen and saying, "Okay, you travel three days to the baron's castle through verdant farmland without any incident."

If I said this, I wouldn't expect my players to start arguing about how they didn't get to set their own watches or choose their route or role-play with the pilgrims on the road or pick the pocket of a passing peasant.

 

[Hulkamaniac]

LOL!!!

Our group went to a mercenary town, basically nothing more than a trading post and a tavern, to get some information.

I told the party that I would go inside to get a bit of info and then rest come in a few minutes later.

So I waltz in and everyone stops to look at me. The DM tells me there are a bunch of gruff human soldiers sitting at tables as well as a handful of gruff half-orcs.

I saunter up to the bar and say "Give me a glass of warm milk." The next thing I know I'm being told my halfling is flying out the door of the bar after getting thrown out.

Now THAT is funny, I think your blowing this way out of proportion. What would have been even funnier is if you would have ran back in the bar repeatedly and got thrown out each consecutive time.

 

[hong]

How much time do you folks have for a given game session?

We have about six hours, once a month. If one of my players insisted on turning a bar scene into an opportunity to grandstand, I'd (as DM) have him thrown out, too. There's just not enough time to waste (if I may be so bold) on role-playing every scene the PCs choose to create.

Nobody has said that time was a problem for this group. Just because you have issues with scheduling doesn't mean other people do. Besides which, if the basic act of going into a bar counts as "grandstanding", the tone of your campaign must be... interesting, to say the least.

If there was time, fine...why not let the halfling play out the scene?

But if your time, like mine, is extremely limited, then you have to pick and choose. There's nothing wrong with a DM fiat in a case like this. It should never be done in combat, but it's the exact same thing as rolling some dice behind the screen and saying, "Okay, you travel three days to the baron's castle through verdant farmland without any incident."

The player specifically set up a scene. He deserves the chance to play out that scene. If time really was an issue, then the DM should simply have said that nothing interesting happens, and returned the focus to the main adventure. Describing a dramatic situation but not giving the player the chance to influence events is taking the worst of both worlds. To use your example, you wouldn't say that the characters travel three days to the baron's castle and get mugged along the way, losing half their possessions.

 

[Andor of the Blade]

Originally posted by Petrosian

If you make fun of a character in what he is good at, then you belittle him and all that he has worked at, for the sake of a yuck.

Petrosian has hit it exactly! If you want cinematic effect (comedy or story-telling), base it on the character's weaknesses, not their strengths. Would the halfling have cared if he didn't get a strength check to lift a keg of milk? Probably not, it's not what he's good at.

Originally posted by Tom Cashel

But if your time, like mine, is extremely limited, then you have to pick and choose.

Do you decide the outcomes of fights without the players rolling as well? A halfing Rogue/Bard is not good at combat. He is good at people skills. Denying him the chance to use these skills in the appropriate situation (such as this case) is the same as denying the fighter a chance to battle and just saying, "You lose." (as in Pielorinho's story.) If you choose to deny the PCs actions due to time constraints, deny them actions relating to what they are poor at, not to their strengths.

To answer the original question: IMO, the DM was extremely unfair and you did not over-react.

 

[Pielorinho]

How much time do you folks have for a given game session?

We have about six hours, once a month. If one of my players insisted on turning a bar scene into an opportunity to grandstand, I'd (as DM) have him thrown out, too.

Wow. This is a really different approach to gaming from what I take.

Sure, my time is limited (although not as limited as yours -- we usually play in my campaign for 3-4 hours every 2 weeks). I have a lot of scenes that I'm hoping to get to, and often we don't get to half of the scenes I've prepared.

Two examples:

1) In a city-based adventure, all hell was breaking loose, and the temple which one of the PCs oversaw was filling up with refugees. I planned to have a dramatic scene in which the temple was besieged by bad guys. However, one of the PCs got angry at the temple's guards and got in a fistfight with one of them. I let the scene play out; he ended up getting chewed out by an elderly temple matron, stalking out of the temple, walking around the empty streets for about an hour contemplating whether to leave town, and finally coming back and apologizing. It took about half an hour of game time; we didn't get to some of my scenes until the next game session.

2) In a different game, the PCs found a throwaway magic item that moved a couple inches when the command word was said. It had no other power, but they spent a good twenty minutes saying the command word over and over and over and following the item, convinced that it would lead them somewhere important. Finally, when they suggested yet another permutation of saying the command word ("Ooh! Okay, this time, we'll dangle it from a string and say the command word and see what direction it turns in!") I dropped out of narrator-mode and told them, "Look, guys. I have a lot of stuff planned for tonight, and I *promise* you that it'll be more interesting than dangling this item from a string and saying the command word. Will you give it up?" They did.

That second example is about the only time I've ever done that: usually, I let the players choose their direction.

Note that when you say you don't want to waste time "on role-playing every scene the PCs choose to create," it sounds like you don't want the PCs to choose their direction. THe halfling-in-a-bar scene coulda been tons of fun to play through; I gave four examples of how to turn it into an interesting, dramatic scene.

Had the halfling, on the other hand, persisted in striking up conversation with each one of the 2 dozen drunken shlubs in the bar, mistakenly thinking that one of them held the Key to the Plot, then DM intervention might have been necessary. However, in this case, I think the DM missed an opportunity to play out a great scene that could have helped define the halfling's personality.

Daniel

 

[Tom Cashel]

Besides which, if the basic act of going into a bar counts as "grandstanding", the tone of your campaign must be... interesting, to say the least..

Hong, do me favor and drop that smart-aleck attitude. You don't know Thing One about my campaign.

Telling all the other players to wait outside, and then going into the gruff bar and ordering warm milk, seems designed to set up a long and possibly humorous scene for one player. That's grandstanding, and it's not "the basic act of going into a bar," or there wouldn't be a whole thread devoted to it.

Read my story hour if you want to know the tone of my campaign. It is indeed ineteresting...for all the members of the group, not just the one who insists on going off on his own all the time.

I'd really like the DM in question to weigh in on this. His reasons for what he did would explain a lot.

Originally posted by Andor of the Blade

Do you decide the outcomes of fights without the players rolling as well?

Of course! Don't you? (grumble...bitch...gripe...)

Criminy...if the DM had said to the player, "They beat you to within an inch of your life (1 hp), take all your magic items, and toss your bruised body into the gutter," then I can see how you might have a point with what you're saying. They just "threw him out." The DM skipped the rules for six guys grappling one halfling, and said, "they throw you out."

This is all getting kind of circular without hearing the DM's opinion.