Did the WotC boards blow up...again?

[Michael Morris]

Yeah, they're called hivemind threads - but aside from that....

 

[Nadaka]

And would you know it we went down

I need more disk space!! There's nothing wrong with the software but I am running out of space to put all these posts. Maybe I should do like WotC and delete threads at random.

Or you could do it like the crew at Palladium and delete everything that isn't 100% positive for your products and everything that isn't 100% negative towards competitors products.

 

[silentounce]

Or you could do it like the crew at Palladium and delete everything that isn't 100% positive for your products and everything that isn't 100% negative towards competitors products.

No, they've already done that and they still need more.

Yeah, they're called hivemind threads - but aside from that....

I always knew there was some nefarious reason they picked Gleemax as the name/logo for this.

 

[Tao]

The maddening thing to me is went over for a look see then asked who I could privately speak to regarding what I can glean from an examination of the output code. It seems you have to go through a "customer service" department.

I've worked in cust-serv -- their entire job is making you think something is being done while nothing is being done. I have better things to do than try to convince some moron making WA state minimum wage (or less if they're outsourcing) that I know what the hell I'm talking about.

First of all, considering that (to my recollection anyways) you've worked fairly closely with the WizO team in the past, I would have thought you'd have a bit more professional courtesy than that. I can't speak for everyone in the company, but I can speak for my own handling of situations. Anything that makes its way to my desk is dealt with in the most professional and appropriate manner possible, and any valid criticism is passed up and evaluated. Its a fool who is unwilling to learn from the critique of others, and I consistently question anything that I believe might be a bad call regardless of who has made the call.

I told them in February 06 just before I left when it was mentioned to me that they were merging accounts that it was probably not a good idea, and in any event to be careful. Apparently they weren't careful.

...

Harsh. Probably. Had they kept communication channels open then I would have used those channels. As it stands I can only rant. If I'm going to rant I might as well do it from the safety of a board where I know the moderators won't get all miffed and delete the post mysteriously -- there's been far too many accusations of that on the WotC boards for it not to be the case.

Despite an overall correct assessment of the situation, the fact that you seem unwilling to communicate in a civil manner seems to ensure that nothing you are saying will be taken as anything more than sour grapes and a chip on your shoulder. If you submitted that assessment through the proper channels in a more appropriate and businesslike tone you might have a chance of actually helping the situation. Instead of... you know... whining impotently on the internetz.

I'm not even going to bother responding to the professional snipe against the moderating staff of the WotC boards, except to say that it is completely uncalled for and untrue. No posts are deleted without reason or documentation. Oftentimes the reason for deletion is stated by the moderator in the thread, unless doing so would violate the poster's privacy or make a specific poster look bad publicly. If there is no reason given or if you simply have a concern as to why your post was deleted, feel free to contact Customer Service and ask for the reason. Be sure to include a link to the thread in your inquiry. We'll be happy to explain.

I'll add this last note though - When I left it wasn't broke.

As a former Admin WizO, I can make the same claim on a whole lot of fronts. However, there are productive and nonproductive ways to approach the situation. I know "ranting against the man" and talking about how "you'd do it better" gets lots of internet street cred around here... but lets face it... its not helping anything but your own ego.

WARNING: Geek/programmer stuff ahead

The problem with the WotC boards is that they're running them on a forked vBulletin (PHP/MySQL running from Apache on Linux [Red Hat, I believe]), but all of Gleemax is run via ASP.NET on Windows (Server 2003, probably). This alone means they're either storing the session in the database, or doing some really hacked-up programming to keep it going between Windows and Linux (I haven't tried that, but I've tried to maintain session between Classic ASP and ASP.NET, and it just didn't work due to the methods used to retrieve the data). They're so caught up in trying to integrate everything and have SSO (Single Sign On) that they aren't taking the steps to make sure it will work properly first. If they knew they were doing to want SSO capability, they should have either A: Written the Gleemax stuff in PHP and run it all on Linux (probably the easier option, since Gleemax was a "greenfield" application) or B: Redid the forums in ASP.NET.

Trying to make a Linux-based messageboard integrate completely with an ASP.NET login and site is probably the worst idea to pick from (which, of course, makes it unsurprising at all that it's the option they chose). It can be done, certainly, but it requires a lot of forethought and a very good sysadmin who knows what he's doing. WotC clearly has neither of these. Also, I recall reading once that the way they've set up their MySQL database is a bit wonky (I think it had to do with clustering, or space issues, but I can't remember the exact details), which almost certainly isn't helping things.

Pretty much spot on assessment, in my opinion. I was (and continue to be) REALLY surprised that they chose to go .asp for Gleemax and the SSO, especially considering that there are fairly good .php solutions readily available. I can only assume that it has to do with the eventual SSO plans for Gleemax, Forums, DDI, and MO, but I am just a peon, so I am not privy to any of that information. Plus, I couldn't share even if I knew.

On the plus side, if I got off my lazy butt and finished working on my "Gleemax Killer" gaming social network site, I could probably steal people away from the real thing because it never works.

Oddly enough, when Gleemax was first announced the Admin WizO team had a pow-wow one night to hash out how we would do it given the chance. It was strictly theoretical in nature and, again, didn't take into account DDI or MO or other applications, but it was a lot more straightforward.

::shrug::

Hindsight is 20/20, I suppose.

Plus, its been a few years since I was the GUI designer of a major VOIP messenging company, so I may be forgetting how hard it is to get things past "corporate". Sometimes the solutions aren't a result of incompetent programmers. Sometimes its because the people upstairs want an impossible product at an impossible price. Working without the anchor of a major corporate entity holding down every decision is definitely a different experience.

 

[Delta]

Despite an overall correct assessment of the situation, the fact that you seem unwilling to communicate in a civil manner seems to ensure that nothing you are saying will be taken as anything more than sour grapes and a chip on your shoulder. If you submitted that assessment through the proper channels in a more appropriate and businesslike tone you might have a chance of actually helping the situation. Instead of... you know... whining impotently on the internetz.

I disagree with this. Morris' posts seemed perfectly civil, businesslike, and honest to me. His professional insights are the best information some of us can get to weigh the status of the Wizards forums and digital presence at the moment. Huge thanks to him for posting them publicly.

 

[Nifft]

Despite an overall correct assessment of the situation, the fact that you seem unwilling to communicate in a civil manner

That was civil.

Cheers, -- N

 

[BadMojo]

I disagree with this. Morris' posts seemed perfectly civil, businesslike, and honest to me. His professional insights are the best information some of us can get to weigh the status of the Wizards forums and digital presence at the moment. Huge thanks to him for posting them publicly.

Yeah, I thought it was a good read. I'm glad he didn't sugarcoat the train wreck that is the WotC boards. I can honestly say that I've never seen a forum run by a major company that was consistently malfunctioning. Search wasn't available for years and I can't remember a time (going back 5 years or so) that the service wasn't down on a monthly basis, sometimes for days on end. It's really shocking that these are the official forums of a large company and they work like something a stoned guy is running out of his basement.

The failure of the WotC boards are what made me sign up in the first place and I gladly pay for my search access here because... wait for it... it's almost always available when I want to use it. I can add that the other reason I never post there is the ridiculous "baby with the bathwater" solution to people flaming the authors of the WotC novels. We can't talk about an official Wizards product on the official Wizards forums? Seriously?

 

[Tao]

I disagree with this. Morris' posts seemed perfectly civil, businesslike, and honest to me. His professional insights are the best information some of us can get to weigh the status of the Wizards forums and digital presence at the moment. Huge thanks to him for posting them publicly.

Like I said, his assessment of the situation was a good one. However, publicly using words like "moron" and "sucks" to describe what is essentially a competitor and former employer is considered unprofessional at best. It is one thing to make a professional assessment of a situation. It is quite another to do so while using emotionally charged words and publicly questioning the ethics and intelligence of the people you are criticizing.

I've had complaints about Wizards of the Coast's message boards that extend well into Morris' tenure. Acting like he was the duct tape that was single handily holding the boards together might be patting himself on the back a bit too hard. I'm not saying he was responsible for them, but he may be forgetting that it is a lot easier to run a site like this without the layers and layers of executive oversight and interference. Many of the problems over there are not new... some of them are. All of them need to be fixed.

I am not going to sugarcoat these problems. They're extremely unfortunate, and they could have and should have been avoided. They most likely would have been avoided if WotC really valued the forums in anything other than a support role. However, there is a fine line between criticism and insults. Once you begin to cross that line, your input becomes increasingly likely to be ignored by anyone who can fix the problem.

 

[Bump2daWiza]

The failure of the WotC boards are what made me sign up in the first place and I gladly pay for my search access here because... wait for it... it's almost always available when I want to use it. I can add that the other reason I never post there is the ridiculous "baby with the bathwater" solution to people flaming the authors of the WotC novels. We can't talk about an official Wizards product on the official Wizards forums? Seriously?

I am here for the same reason.

One problem that seriously needs to be addressed over there, and I honestly have no idea how these things work so I could be off, is the DDI General forum. At first Ken Troop came on and made it sound like we were going to have many of our questions answered about the product (and its failure to launch). The page was a great idea. They could have won someone like me over, and convinced to still pay for DDI. But since they don't really seem to be answering questions any more, and their excuse is "making software is hard", I think I will be passing.

 

[Delta]

However, publicly using words like "moron" and "sucks" to describe what is essentially a competitor and former employer is considered unprofessional at best... there is a fine line between criticism and insults. Once you begin to cross that line, your input becomes increasingly likely to be ignored by anyone who can fix the problem.

Completely and totally disagree. I'd hate to see Morris' honest observations shut down by anybody on here.

If one couldn't say that WOTC forum performance "sucks" then frankly that person would not be speakingly honestly.