Did WotC Effectively KILL the En World community's conversion process?

[Morrus]

WotC didn't have the resources to check all the conversions to see if they were OK. It's expensive, and it brings in no profit.

But WotC asked *me* to ensure that they were all OK. If a company like WotC doesn't have the resources to do that, how on earth does a single person like myself have the resources?

While I'm not saying that WotC should have to check them all, I don't think that resources is the issue. Or, if it was, they were actively extracting the Michael when they suggested that I do it.

Again, we're not talking about legal necessities. We're talking about respect; we're talking about their fans. We'r talking about the single largest grouping of their direct fans *anywhere*. They don't *have* to respect us, but I darn well think that they *should*. Especially when you take into account the number of times Eric bent over backwards to accomodate them back in the day - little of that goodwill was ever returned.

 

[Morrus]

You have mentioned this previously. I see what you are saying but it seems it would be impossible to maintain a resale value on their property if they do not have the ability to remove any restrictions placed ion that property by third-party agreements such as a conversion policy. ?

Then why bother with the license at all? From our POV, it's worthless, as evidenced by its lack of use. Frankly, I'd rather they'd just said from the start "Sorry, folks, we'd rather you didn't do that." And guess what? We wouldn't, whether we legally could or not.

 

[Mark]

MerricB - Good point. Any adjustment requests need to be made understanding that this is their playground and they have concerns.

Not sure about the 3rd point, but I can't help but believe that the 1st two items could easily be accomplished.

The SRD is a separate issue but I imagine will continue to be updated with 3.5 and beyond.

Why do you believe the first two points can "easily be accomplished"? I do not think that is the case considering we're asking a company to freely give rights to using some of its property. It's certainly less likely to happen in an atmosphere where WotC is being attacked, blamed for not giving up their rights, or insulted for their decisions or policies.

 

[Mark]

Then why bother with the license at all? From our POV, it's worthless, as evidenced by its lack of use. Frankly, I'd rather they'd just said from the start "Sorry, folks, we'd rather you didn't do that." And guess what? We wouldn't, whether we legally could or not.

It semed some people were interested in seeking a policy change that would make it possible to do more conversions. I simply thought I would throw a view psts toward finding a way that this could happen.

Are you saying that you think I am wasting my time, because I certainly won't do something on your boards if you feel that way. Without your support toward finding a solution it would be pointless for me to try.

 

[spunky_mutters]

Why do you believe the first two points can "easily be accomplished"? I do not think that is the case considering we're asking a company to freely give rights to using some of its property. It's certainly less likely to happen in an atmosphere where WotC is being attacked, blamed for not giving up their rights, or insulted for their decisions or policies.

Hey Wizards is a company. As long as we're not insulting any person in particular, they'll look at how it affects their bottom line. If we start demonizing a person there, I'm sure that person isn't going to take us seriously, but consumers griping for change is something that every company has to keep an eye on. You can't realistically take it personally when your target market comes after you looking for blood. You need to look at how it affects your business. If they take it personally, they aren't being very professional about things. We don't have to be professional, we're internet whiners.

The site is still here, and still doing what they want it to, so their lack of respect has had no real impact on their business. They won't sink any resource into this unless they can see that 1. It's somehow worth it for future income or 2. It's going to negatively impact current income if they don't.

I don't see either one happening.

 

[Mark]

We don't have to be professional, we're internet whiners.

Tell you what... I can't really help along those lines. I don't think that a policy change can be affected with that approach. If Morrus doesn't mind an effort being made in this area on his boards then I'll leave it to you to be in charge of it. You seem to know what needs to be done.

 

[Brown Jenkin]

1) Let us convert a module so that it is actually playable rather than slavishly plugging in the 20 Hill Giants as mentioned earlier in the thread.

2) Give us some kind of reassurance that we won't have our hard work destroyed on a whim just because WotC decides to throw their toys out of the pram & go home.

3) Add more stuff to the SRD.

Not sure about the 3rd point, but I can't help but believe that the 1st two items could easily be accomplished.

I already proposed a compromise to point 2 so I will now tackle point 1.

I understand WotC position on not wanting the entire text converted and where this could cause problems. I also understand the need to make the adventure playable. the compromise I would propose is to specifically ban any conversion of the non-monster/trap/treasure specifics that the conversion is being done for. If anyone republishes any of this banned text then they are considered in violation of the policy and subject to the full legal consequenses for copyright infringement. When converting monsters/traps/treasure the originals must first be converted as literally as possible, after this a alternate monster/trap/treasue may be presented as long as it is clearly marked as not original and is needed because the original monster/trap/treasure is innapropriate to the character level the adventure was originally designed for.

 

[MerricB]

But WotC asked *me* to ensure that they were all OK. If a company like WotC doesn't have the resources to do that, how on earth does a single person like myself have the resources?

I understand, Morrus. I don't like it either.

However, I'm going to hazard a guess as to why you were asked to make sure the conversions were legal:

If any of the conversions were illegal, ENworld could be liable for any damage that caused to WotC.

ENworld benefits (I use the word loosely) from having converted material here. It attracts more visitors, and thus a potential profit (hah!) from the advertising and services ENworld sells.

(If in fact, ENworld is a greatly profitable organisation, I apologise for my earlier parenthical remarks.)

If in fact, that converted material is illegal because of a copying of text or similar, then Wizards possibly could make a case against ENworld. You, as the beneficiary of the material, may be liable. Thus, you must check to see that it's correct.

WotC isn't really gaining much of a benefit from the d20 conversions. (The possible addition of sales in the ESD line is probably considered inconsequential). There is, however, a benefit to whatever site hosts the conversions, thus the requirement for that site to make sure they're legal.

Cheers!

 

[HeavyG]

How would you propose a future conversion policy remedy that situation?

I don't know that any way to accomodate me is possible, Mark.

However, I feel that as long as the conversion isn't playable stand-alone and requires the original adventure, it should be allowed. Obviously, maps are right out, and things like room description, plot and npc speeches and such don't need to be changed. Also, if some thing doesn't change, you shouldn't recopy it in the conversion.

You should be able to include some copyrighted material in the conversion though, like for instance NPC names and their stats and gear in their 3E stat blocks. I believe the current rules let you do that.

The most important thing would be to let you alter monsters, treasure and plot (within reason) to make it fit 3E. Without this clause, conversions are useless and it alone could make them worthwhile.

Of course, even if it were so, my conversion would still be right out because I rewrote whole encounters to make the modules fit my personal style. (Two tarrasques in the series ? I don't think so !)

 

[James Heard]

EN World though, greatly benefits WOTC profits whether they admit it or not. It's the largest fan site for their game line on the map, if they can't play nicely with EN World then why shouldn't they get scorn? I just don't see why it wouldn't be in their best interests not to at the very least condone some sort of "semi-official only at EN World" conversion process that was more user-friendly since then they'd be able to:

1. Police only EN World. If EN World is the only place that's allowed to do the friendly conversions then it follows that everyone else distributing them would be on shaking ground almost immediately. Likewise, they'd only have one place to go to probably to see most conversions and make sure that they weren't going to destroy their mighty publishing empire.
2. I dunno, link to EN World as a source of unofficial content and adventures. EN World isn't even competing with their Dungeon magazine for modules since they sold that off.
3. Provide a pipeline to individual authors for the management of the Conversion Library, I assume WOTC has a better shot at having some sort of information on the authors of 25 year old products than Morrus does so if that is an issue then...
4. Create some sort of document that creates a limited "fan use" licence that can't be revoked in the same way as the SRD. Fan conversions would be sort of a free branding and marketing tool for promotion of later licencing, the purchasers of a licenced product would be within their rights to revoke the right to further conversions, but couldn't get rid of the already written derivative product.

Anways, IANAL(thank the gods) but those are my .02

JMH