Diety-unique Clerics

[smootrk]

I like the idea of individual base classes built for each deity. A priest of Thor would be very different indeed from a priestess of Aphrodite - and not just in the realm of spell choices or a couple of minor abilities derived from domain choices. A priest of Thor would even be quite different from a priest of Zeus despite both deities having dominion over lightning. Imagine the difference with a priest of Boccob - looking outwardly as a standard wizard.

However, it would only be practical for a setting with a very small pantheon when doing this by oneself. It would be quite the endeavor for a setting such as the Forgotten Realms.

I was essentially doing this while I played 1e/2e games, but the concept of total balance makes me hesitate to do the same for 3.x games.

 

[Lord Zack]

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboard...rchives/theNonGenericCleric&page=4&source=rss

Check that out.

 

[Woas]

Of course I am gracious for the advice so far I agree with you on this point here smootrk. A number of comments have mentioned that just changing the spells known/domains would be enough to differentiate two clerics. But my thoughts were much deeper than that and went into what kind of weapons, armor, skills and special abilities would define one cleric of a particular deity from the next.

Taking Folly's example of a cleric of Olidammara who chooses to wear light armor and have a high dex to compensate. This cleric would still turn or rebuke undead, call holy fire down from the heavens and spontaneously cast heal/harm spells. Nothing that I would image a cleric of a luck deity should do. True the Luck Domain power is someone in theme. But really I picture a class with a good reflex save, not fort save and other abilities other than turning undead. And although true, if that type of cleric were pictured next to say a cleric of Kord the characters would look different. But gameplay and rules wise they both 'do' the same thing with the same abilities.

On the other hand. I thought of something else. If there are all these little niche deity-specific clerics, it might seem like they are all stepping on the other, non-divine class' toes. A special cleric of Olidammara might be too much like a rogue. And thus not worth playing either the rogue or the specific cleric over the other, since one or the other is going to just be better and doing it's thing.

I like the idea of individual base classes built for each deity. A priest of Thor would be very different indeed from a priestess of Aphrodite - and not just in the realm of spell choices or a couple of minor abilities derived from domain choices. A priest of Thor would even be quite different from a priest of Zeus despite both deities having dominion over lightning. Imagine the difference with a priest of Boccob - looking outwardly as a standard wizard.

 

[smootrk]

I think the key to making these deity specific classes not take over the niches of the other base classes is to include certain limits or behavioral parameters. After all, real world priests of different religions have certain oaths or callings to adhere to such as celibacy, marriages, vows of poverty (not to be confused with the goofy feat/vow from Book of Exalted). Certain weapons could be forbidden, or armors, or even types of companions (paladin god says NO to barbarians or law breaking thieves).

Another area where the differences between priests would be prominent would be the spell list (as mentioned above). Instead of just the domain benefit spells being the only difference - I can see much more changes in the list. A great number of spells could be dropped off of any priest's list unless their deity actual has some dominion in that area. For instance, I would doubt that a peaceful non-violent healing god would have 'any' of the common damaging spells. Conversely, no fire god would take anything involved with water, rain, mist, etc.

The limits of each priest should present themselves as they are designed. Start the class design with nothing, then start to build up the class including just the minimum to model for that deity.... not deconstructing the existing ultra utilitarian cleric class trying to strip out only the stuff that does not match the god in question.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

You might want to take a look at the 3Ed book Book of the Righteous* from Green Ronin.

I know it lets you create custom holy warriors for different faiths & alignments- it may help you do the same for clerics, I simply can't remember at this time.

(*I believe its also been updated to 3.5 in pdf form.)

 

[Aus_Snow]

You might want to take a look at the 3Ed book Book of the Righteous* from Green Ronin.

Yes. It's very good.

it may help you do the same for clerics, I simply can't remember at this time.

But no, it doesn't do that. Clerics are basically still Clerics, although the fluff sections for those of each faith are nonetheless excellent. Holy Warriors replace Paladins and are pretty flexible, rules-wise. Not in terms of HD or something basic like that, mind you. The BotR also presents a number of prestige classes, for many of the faiths.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Still, the methodology they used in the Holy Warriors appendix can, if nothing else, provide a some insight into how one might go about having 2Ed Priest style flexibility in 3.X Clerics.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

So I was wondering if anyone has ever tried this before? I'm a big fan of Arcana Evolved and naturally thought of something like how the Totem Warrior class works if you are familiar with it. And also wondered if by some strange occurrence that a miscellaneous .pdf or other source book may have covered this (I own Complete Divine although I try not to admit it. Never got the second one, Complete Champion was it?) already that I should look to? Does anyone have other suggestions on making this quick and easy or just other thoughts on it in general?

I think a lot of people mess around with classes to more closely fit fluff. A couple simple house rules that do wonders for the cleric class is to 1) limit divine casters to individual lists of spell known and 2) ignore the arbitrary BS of class spell lists. Right off the bat these two rules make each individual cleric inherently more "in tune" with their deity.

Other than those two rules, just experiment with trading cleric class features for other class features. For example when I wanted to play a priest of a war deity in my current campaign, I sat down with my DM and worked out a "war priest" variant. I traded turning and domain spells for a good BAB and a unique war cry ability that improved with level.

Hope that helps,
TS

 

[Will]

One thing I've noticed is that 'Domain Spontaneity' from Complete Divine can REALLY help change the flavor of a cleric: I have a cleric with Domain Spontaneity: Knowledge, which means he can spontaneously swap spells for things like Detect Thoughts and Clairvoyance.

A more house-ruley approach, while not going very far, would be to treat 'turn/rebuke undead' as a domain power.

So: Clerics get 3 domains + domain spontaneity with one of those domains. Add two new domains for Positive and Negative energy, each filled with Cures or Inflicts, the power of which is to Turn or Rebuke undead.

 

[Nifft]

The trouble with Domain Spontaneity is that some domains infringe heavily on the Wizard spell list. (For Knowledge, it's probably not a big deal, but for Fire or Travel? Wow.) I tried something similar after re-working Cleric domains to be less infringy, and even then it was abusable.

Good players who don't abuse a bad system are a blessing for creative DMs. IMHO rules should be bent for such players, but not designed with them in mind.

- - -

Of course, the OTHER trouble is that spontaneous cure exists mostly as a meta-mechanic. It's there so Clerics can "do their job" when the party wants healing, but they aren't required to prepare only cure spells. Domain Spontaneity (the feat) doesn't remove this, so it's okay. However, removing this ability from all Clerics by default re-creates the dilemma for Clerics: do they take raw power, or do they take the ability that will make the party stop whining? I think this is a bad position to put a player in.

Cheers, -- N